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Here's what is clear: Shannow Send a noteboard - 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM
Dammit Sidious... this is getting irritating as hell. Silviana clearly states that in the night when Egwene will surely gain her full strength, Barasine alone is enough to shield her, but she wants one more person to prevent trickery from Egwene.

Thus, Barasine alone can shield Egwene, meaning Egwene cannot be more than twice as strong as her.


We know for a FACT that Amys cannot hold Egwene for more than a few moments in FoH. If Barasine is weaker than Amys, how on earth can Barasine hold Egwene if Egwene is NOT under the influence of forkroot?

Either RJ was wrong, or BS is wrong. So, who do YOU think is wrong?


Barasine could shield Egwene in KoD, so it was RJ all the way.

Now, Amys said she was exhausted by the effort, but she still did hold the shield. So it isn't true at all that Amys cannot shield Egwene.

By my list, both are stronger than half Egwene's strength, and thus both can indeed shield her. Which is verified by the text.


Amys is at that point where she can hold Egwene with great effort, but if Egwene tried, she might be able to break the shield. Egwene did try and couldn't break it, but Amys said she needed to release saidar because Egwene was too strong.

Either way, this debate has gone off on a tangent. Neither Melaine or Amys are weak women, and Egwene is stronger than both combined. Egwene isn't even top strength - all the Forsaken and some good guys exceed her in power. Logically, the average woman cannot cluster around 50% of maximum strength. If so, then Moiraine was really retarded to think that it would take Aviendha and Egwene to 'perhaps' match one of the Forsaken.

Also it takes at least five women to hold a high powered male. Siuan said that Logain would have escaped if it had been less than six women, which is acceptable proof to me that women peak at 10-20. If they're around 50, then Logain is one hell of a guy.


Egwene is roughly as strong as Amys and Melaine combined. Aviendha's quote in FoH cannot be reasonably interpreted in any other way.

If the Bell Curve is a linear reflection of absolute strength, then Lanfear must be twice as strong as the average woman.

That means someone half as strong as Lanfear must be the average woman, and what's more, MOST women must be clustered around that strength range.

Someone barely more than half the strength of Egwene therefore MUST be weaker than the average woman.

That means that Moiraine is weaker than the average woman.

And THAT means that a HUGE number of channelers must be out there, and ON AVERAGE they must be stronger than Moiraine. Probably around Cadsuane's strength.

And since that seems extremely unlikely, the only logical conclusion is that the Bell Curve cannot be a linear representation of absolute strength.
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Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM 2201 Views
Some good RAFOs here Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:31:56 PM 968 Views
Yeah... Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:36:55 PM 887 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking! Logain - 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM 1126 Views
No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM 1003 Views
See the question again man! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM 963 Views
That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM 1040 Views
How? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:41 PM 980 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM 975 Views
Think logically for a moment... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM 820 Views
Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM 1065 Views
Aviendha did in FoH... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM 821 Views
Nope! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM 983 Views
Your quotes are faulty Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM 997 Views
In what sense though? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM 987 Views
Forkroot Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM 921 Views
Again... later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM 767 Views
What do you mean? Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM 972 Views
See below... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM 886 Views
Re: See below... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM 932 Views
I just did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM 750 Views
Well then we disagree Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM 950 Views
BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM 800 Views
Ah, you mean later later ... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM 895 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM 994 Views
Yes I know Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM 984 Views
I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM 973 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM 964 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM 899 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM 927 Views
Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM 994 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:29:04 PM 1093 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:47:00 PM 886 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe? Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM 813 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM 891 Views
In that case, there is no problem... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM 861 Views
But that isn't what the text says... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM 770 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then? Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM 972 Views
She also says Egwene is Aes Sedai in the same sentence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:25:16 PM 1011 Views
Yeah, both were RJ Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM 879 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM 977 Views
Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM 948 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM 829 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM 932 Views
Re: Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:43:41 PM 795 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:50:23 PM 972 Views
I haven't refuted? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:53:17 PM 998 Views
Here's what is clear: Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM 867 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM 855 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM 773 Views
At least we agree on one thing Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM 864 Views
No... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:32:06 PM 782 Views
Re: No... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:43:59 PM 953 Views
fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:57:25 PM 796 Views
Re: Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:12:29 PM 904 Views
Re: fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:34:28 PM 908 Views
Thought on this darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:09:29 PM 819 Views
yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3 darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM 705 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM 807 Views
That was kind of my point... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:19:23 PM 545 Views
of course Katerine would have complained darius_sedai - 12/06/2010 12:53:31 PM 917 Views
The rate forkroot wears off? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM 908 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all! fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM 825 Views
Typos, screwed up what I meant Rurouni_Kenshin - 17/06/2010 02:31:50 AM 835 Views
You are... fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 04:32:47 AM 1044 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM 702 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM 836 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM 801 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM 815 Views
Easy... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM 782 Views
What has that got to do with it? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM 965 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half.. Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM 869 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM 1013 Views
I can agree with that. Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM 771 Views
How can you agree with it? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:13:55 PM 980 Views
I'm thinking Berowin here... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:16:41 PM 973 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:18:19 PM 843 Views
... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM 752 Views
Agreed, but... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM 927 Views
Re: Agreed, but... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM 723 Views
Good point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM 943 Views
Or, you know, you're wrong? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:55 PM 809 Views
Re: Good point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM 1006 Views
We've had this discussion before darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM 908 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM 809 Views
The Bell Curve fits perfectly if one simple fact is true... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:31:31 PM 759 Views
Or, you know, you can stop misinterpreting Aviendha... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:40:05 PM 883 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM 744 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM 757 Views
Re: Uhhh? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM 757 Views
DUDE! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM 786 Views
Re: DUDE! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:09:11 PM 769 Views
I explained... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:27:44 PM 764 Views
Re: I explained... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:45:58 PM 870 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM 1348 Views
That's fairly simple, actually... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM 981 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM 959 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM* fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM 470 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM 1009 Views
You are making a couple of mistakes darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:28:41 PM 876 Views
You're missing an important point... fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:10:55 PM 861 Views
Yes, what do you mean? You are actually proving our point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:10:50 PM 734 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM 801 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM 820 Views
That makes no sense whatsoever... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:06:53 PM 781 Views
Simply this... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:13:42 PM 800 Views
Very poor evidence Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM 924 Views
No it isn't... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:18:09 PM 872 Views
Re: No it isn't... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:32:17 PM 961 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM 876 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined... Shannow - 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM 932 Views
Here's the problem with that... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM 784 Views
Linked circles are more effective than individual channelers... Shannow - 11/06/2010 01:57:43 PM 883 Views
That much stronger? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:06:18 PM 942 Views
On this we agree. darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:34:45 PM 768 Views
I think you are misreading her. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM 725 Views
Bingo *NM* Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:51:29 PM 553 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM* Logain - 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM 507 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM 965 Views
Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM 811 Views
I don't agree Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM 796 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM 901 Views
Hmm... Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM 714 Views
Because of the question to which she responded... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM 755 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM 884 Views
Without contradicting the latter... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM 786 Views
Ah well Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM 750 Views
Which is even more evidence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:23:28 PM 853 Views
Dude Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:30:57 PM 976 Views
It isn't omission fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 10:54:47 PM 927 Views
omg not this again *NM* BlackAdder - 10/06/2010 07:52:26 PM 902 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM 1004 Views
Nope... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM 856 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 889 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55? Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM 761 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM 700 Views
Amys can't hold her properly Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM 728 Views
What about later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM 721 Views
No she didn't darius_sedai - 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM 854 Views
No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM 909 Views
Re: No she didn't what? darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM 742 Views
Re: No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 06:02:57 PM 903 Views
you are arguing in a circle darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:31:19 PM 1220 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM 875 Views
That's simple... fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM 826 Views
Re: That's simple... Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM 774 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it. fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM 965 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body. Gher - 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM 807 Views
But they didn't look alike anyway. *NM* Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:59:35 PM 556 Views
Eh, yeah. Gher - 12/06/2010 08:24:10 PM 758 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new beetnemesis - 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 945 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM 1022 Views
They RAFO way too much. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:56 AM 746 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM 775 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM 1054 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second... Logain - 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM 782 Views
That still proves my point... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM 958 Views
Re: That still proves my point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM 809 Views
Then why... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM 902 Views
Re: Then why... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM 771 Views
God, what stupidity! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM 768 Views
Re: God, what stupidity! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM 875 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM 830 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100. Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM 1094 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM 919 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM 859 Views
You're pretty much agreeing with me, you know? fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:32:44 PM 824 Views
Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/06/2010 10:31:00 PM 944 Views
Re: Just to make things clear on the strength thing... Bored - 14/06/2010 11:21:31 PM 1156 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:48:43 PM 749 Views
Also interesting... Etzel - 10/06/2010 09:38:27 PM 894 Views
I'm even more confused (parallel worlds and the Pattern) entyti - 10/06/2010 09:48:17 PM 866 Views
Nah,... DomA - 11/06/2010 11:38:20 AM 866 Views
Fascinating! entyti - 13/06/2010 02:30:42 AM 883 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM 846 Views
I think she's saving that info for her WoT Encyclopedia. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:54:38 AM 896 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. TaskmasterJack - 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM 963 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. DomA - 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM 890 Views
I agree Etzel - 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM 1007 Views
Re: I agree TaskmasterJack - 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM 788 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out" Etzel - 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM 817 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM 483 Views
Actually she said "No"... *NM* Etzel - 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM 574 Views
I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question. TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM 819 Views
Yeah, sorry for the rolly-eyed smiley! Was a bit mean... Etzel - 13/06/2010 09:19:13 AM 840 Views
I agree with Jack and Sidious and not with you. Tom - 11/06/2010 03:20:30 PM 912 Views
Well, on the Thom question... Etzel - 11/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 814 Views
Yeah Sidious - 11/06/2010 08:26:33 AM 910 Views
Re: Yeah darius_sedai - 15/06/2010 12:25:21 AM 766 Views
Eh, practically useless. callandor1000 - 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM 792 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM 454 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though. callandor1000 - 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM 1359 Views
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