In every one of Sanderson's books that I've read (and I've read most of them), I've seen characters who are believable. Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker - they all had people who were complex and fully developed. Few characters were "static" or "two-dimensional"; they would act in ways that were unexpected yet entirely in keeping with who they were, intellectually and emotionally.
Jordan's characters, on the other hand, have largely been ersatz humans with two-dimensional personalities and little emotional, intellectual or spiritual growth. When they display emotion, it is often with stock phrases and cliches.
One of the very few instances in the entire series that has had any real depth has been Rand's "soul-searching" on Dragonmount at the end of The Gathering Storm. I'm not sure how much of that scene was Jordan and how much was Sanderson, but I'm willing to bet that it was more of the latter than the former. I never saw anything that real or immediate in Jordan's writing.
As for the other points, it's obvious Jordan's "Old Tongue" is a pile of crap, linguistically speaking. He would have been better not trying to write "in" it if he can't be like Tolkien. But he so desperately wanted to be like Tolkien.
Jordan's characters, on the other hand, have largely been ersatz humans with two-dimensional personalities and little emotional, intellectual or spiritual growth. When they display emotion, it is often with stock phrases and cliches.
One of the very few instances in the entire series that has had any real depth has been Rand's "soul-searching" on Dragonmount at the end of The Gathering Storm. I'm not sure how much of that scene was Jordan and how much was Sanderson, but I'm willing to bet that it was more of the latter than the former. I never saw anything that real or immediate in Jordan's writing.
As for the other points, it's obvious Jordan's "Old Tongue" is a pile of crap, linguistically speaking. He would have been better not trying to write "in" it if he can't be like Tolkien. But he so desperately wanted to be like Tolkien.
Yeah, anyone whose read a little can immediately see that his characters are pretty shallow and undeveloped. If readers want to identify growth they have to pretty much imagine it for themselves. It's not unexpected really - he has over 1200 characters, and is undoubtedly one of the biggest and most detailed worldbuilders out there - though everything comes with a cost.
I'm halfway through another of Feist's books, and I think his characters are already more well developed spiritually than some of the main characters in WoT.
Certainly his minor characters are very shallow (there are like 1200 of them to your point).
But his main cast have all been developed quite thoroughly as the series has progressed.
Rand, Egwene, Mat, Nynaeve, Elayne have all changed pretty significantly over the course of the books and to a lesser extent Min, Aviendha and Perrin.
Mat probably the most dramatically, but Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve are all very different people from their EF days! In Mat's case he's like a totally different person! Even before he gains the 'Finn memories he's already shown the signs of being the heroic person he later fully embodies.
Certainly RJ kept to specific personality archetypes, as evidenced by the various similarities in women of the same Ajah or people of the same nationality (i.e. all Cairheinin are schemers), but he did have a growth trajectory for at least the main cast. Personally I've never thought this was a weakness in the writing, I find it quite thematically appropriate.
Note how people start changing in small ways once they are forced to communicate with outsiders? Red Ajah women like Silviana and Pevara start cropping up, Dobraine and Caraline show us that Cairheinin aren't all self-serving schemers etc. RJ did introduce change, just in a subtle way, using specific characters to change the archetype of a larger group.
The main characters have developed but it's taken 10 books. Some posters consider the characters to be the same - many people think that Egwene is the same as she always was, though I disagree.
Other series show rapid character moulding that still maintains a good story. I don't know what it is, but after reading over fifty other fantasy books in the past year, I'm convinced that Rand al'Thor is the most monotonous man in the world. The man has spent six thousand pages fighting his sanity.
To each his own. People who like to live side-by-side with characters for years, will be like bees around honey with this series. And as for worldbuilding and culture, there is almost no one better than RJ.
Interestingly, I can't get a single person I know who reads fantasy to read past book 7. That's usually the one that crushes them. I had one friend who stopped at CoT, but that was a while back. I guess my 10th re-read was my last one
I tend to like the world building detail and the plot driven writing style. When I re-read the early books now I see huge differences in the characters compared to later books. But yeah, there are a ton of people who clearly don't see it.
The series slow down after LoC, dramatically so. I think KoD was good though, and Sanderson did an excellent job of picking up the pace!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Seanchan girls. Do they live in terror until 25?
02/06/2010 12:32:14 AM
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It's a huge honor to be a sul'dam, and they test for that on the same day
02/06/2010 01:06:32 AM
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Re: It's a huge honor to be a sul'dam, and they test for that on the same day
02/06/2010 01:50:49 AM
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Re: It's a huge honor to be a sul'dam, and they test for that on the same day
02/06/2010 05:53:14 AM
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Re: It's a huge honor to be a sul'dam, and they test for that on the same day
04/06/2010 07:19:36 PM
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A few details to consider
02/06/2010 01:11:12 AM
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Re: A few details to consider
02/06/2010 02:31:08 AM
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Well, it took centuries for most people to understand breeding/genetics
02/06/2010 08:57:43 PM
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Re: Well, it took centuries for most people to understand breeding/genetics
03/06/2010 03:38:25 AM
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Re: Well, it took centuries for most people to understand breeding/genetics
04/06/2010 07:46:08 PM
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Nobody knows about Sul'dam because it takes them extra long to learn.
03/06/2010 07:58:41 AM
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I think they retest only the sul'dam
02/06/2010 04:13:55 AM
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I'll have to check my EotW, but I think Eg did have some fevers before Winternight. *NM*
02/06/2010 06:34:35 PM
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Re: I think they retest only the sul'dam
04/06/2010 07:55:56 PM
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Point on the testing
08/06/2010 02:15:26 AM
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Re: Point on the testing
08/06/2010 02:46:06 PM
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I'd think that would be a tiny chance given how diligent the Seanchan are in this regard
08/06/2010 02:58:15 PM
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Remember, Seancean have no idea channeling can be "learned"
02/06/2010 07:04:11 AM
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This is how Damane and Sul'Dam are determined, straight from tGH
03/06/2010 08:14:03 AM
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That doesn't make sense. Are you sure they don't put the BRACELET on the girls, not the collar?
04/06/2010 01:35:08 AM
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I am absolutely sure. Quote from book.
04/06/2010 03:09:08 AM
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Toun, though too young can be collared
06/06/2010 03:29:29 AM
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I don't think Tuon will ever Channel
06/06/2010 03:39:16 AM
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Re: I don't think Tuon will ever Channel
06/06/2010 05:07:40 AM
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I just see all of that as potential plot lines for the planned follow-up Mat/Tuon in Seanchan novels
08/06/2010 02:09:26 AM
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Not at all
02/06/2010 03:52:31 PM
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As with most things in Jordan's universe, I don't think it was thought through very seriously.
03/06/2010 08:05:04 PM
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Huh?
03/06/2010 08:44:35 PM
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Sure
03/06/2010 09:00:40 PM
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Bah...
03/06/2010 09:51:09 PM
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Jordan definitely made mistakes with the Ajahs. In particular, the Black Ajah ones who fled.
03/06/2010 10:56:39 PM
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Re: Sure
04/06/2010 04:55:23 AM
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I don't know if that's totally true
04/06/2010 12:09:29 PM
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Maybe you don't read that much serious literature? I just don't see why you are arguing this.
04/06/2010 03:47:50 PM
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I actually don't read much fiction at all to be honest
04/06/2010 04:00:03 PM
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You're right about the fact that I have mostly contempt for Jordan.
04/06/2010 05:42:49 PM
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Meh
04/06/2010 05:03:41 PM
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I love that: "I'm convinced Rand al'Thor is the most monotonous man in the world."
04/06/2010 05:47:01 PM
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LOL ... I hear ya on that
06/06/2010 03:49:48 AM
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I think the number of characters directly contributes to the situation.
04/06/2010 03:51:42 PM
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Re: I think the number of characters directly contributes to the situation.
04/06/2010 05:04:52 PM
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Brandon brings out supporting chars. better, it's true.
04/06/2010 03:17:52 AM
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You're absolutely right. Sanderson gets "inside" the characters a bit more. *NM*
04/06/2010 03:52:29 PM
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