Rand's the most important man in the world right now, but I would hardly call him the "greatest". At least for the moment. What he's done on DM in TGS was impressive and certainly showing potential for greatness, because he finally made a choice.
But men like Rhuarc, Tam, Bashere are all much more accomplished men than Rand.
But men like Rhuarc, Tam, Bashere are all much more accomplished men than Rand.
I think Rand is the greatest.
Maybe he'll grow up fast enough and match them before the LB. He sure has the potential, but through the series he had many more flaws than moments of greatness. Not that he's really to blame. Rand's a teenager, rash, passionate but without real maturity yet. The difference between him and other teenagers is that his youth mistakes and immature behaviour aren't dealt with normally, as part of the game of becoming an adult, but can have cataclysmic consequences for all humanity, because he's been saddled with responsabilites much too great for his age and experience. The whole world hanged on his reaching adulthood soon, and with as few bumps as possible.
If Rand were to die now, his greatest accomplishement would remain his epiphany on DM, destroying the CK and turning himself around, all on his own. The Cleansing of saidin was a team effort. Rand would never had succeeded with a woman like Nynaeve as crazy as he was, and with Cadsuane to transform what was pure madness into something that might actually work. Rand's greatests deed in the Cleansing was his faith that it could work, and ought to be done. His courage, not really his skills (his performance as leader of a mixed gender circle was probably pathetic, by AOL standards... except I'm guessing that letting a man with zero experience of linking handle the CK would have been anathema, and if he was the only one available, they'd probably have dithered and end up missing the opportunity).
If Rand were to die now, his greatest accomplishement would remain his epiphany on DM, destroying the CK and turning himself around, all on his own. The Cleansing of saidin was a team effort. Rand would never had succeeded with a woman like Nynaeve as crazy as he was, and with Cadsuane to transform what was pure madness into something that might actually work. Rand's greatests deed in the Cleansing was his faith that it could work, and ought to be done. His courage, not really his skills (his performance as leader of a mixed gender circle was probably pathetic, by AOL standards... except I'm guessing that letting a man with zero experience of linking handle the CK would have been anathema, and if he was the only one available, they'd probably have dithered and end up missing the opportunity).
I'd say his greatness stems from his ability to route the Shadow. He's destroyed most of their generals, which makes him a man worthy of legend.
I seriously doubt that.
If the Wheel had anything to do with his love life at that point, Mierin was probably a lesson about power thirst, egocentrism and blind ambition for the man who would one day end up having to lead the world.... It seems to have worked, largely. Everything points to LTT having been a good man, mostly selflesss, a man of duty that put his person and his skills in service of the greater good.
Mierin is just a big fat ton of wasted potential, because by all evidence, all that interested her was Mierin Aronaille's own little person, and power.
If the Wheel had anything to do with his love life at that point, Mierin was probably a lesson about power thirst, egocentrism and blind ambition for the man who would one day end up having to lead the world.... It seems to have worked, largely. Everything points to LTT having been a good man, mostly selflesss, a man of duty that put his person and his skills in service of the greater good.
Mierin is just a big fat ton of wasted potential, because by all evidence, all that interested her was Mierin Aronaille's own little person, and power.
I'm of the opinion that Mierin was a relatively normal women in the AOL who had too much ambition. Even Lews Therin implies that it took him some time to work out how truly power-hungry she was. She probably hid it well. All it took was the Dark One to stoke the fires that were already there, and she fell rapidly.
If Mierin were so great, she would have been around LTT and Latra Posae, working humbly day and night to find a solution to seal the gigantic scientific mistake her hubris and her power thirst has contributed in creating. I don't think she had any notion how to do that as a scientist. Lanfear's the AOL's BP engineers... she never thought of what would happen if anything went wrong, and doesn't have the first idea of how to repair the mistake.
There's no evidence for that. We don't know that details regarding the drilling, or their precautions or thoughts at the time. Mierin's dashain states that she boasts about having found a source that men and women could use - not about fame or power. Their intentions were unquestionably noble, even if Mierin was secretly hoping it would bring her a third name or some other fancy accolades.
Instead of being among the leaders, Lanfear was an obscure researcher seemingly obsessed with putting herself into the spotlight.
As evidence by what? Mierin was not obscure. She was not world famous but she was respected by her colleagues. There is no mention of her wanting to be in the spotlight. How do you know she didn't go about her work as a researcher?
That was probably a main motivation behind her efforts to join Beidomon's team, that and the edge being one of the people who were the first to experiment with the new Source would have given her.
I would call that huge speculation. Not many people would turn away from a project considered to be monumental, and besides this, we know absolutely nothing about any of this.
As RJ' said, even before the Bore Mierin was the sort of person ripe to become a Forsaken.
Which would make her as bad as 1 out of 2 people in the AOL. She had flaws which the ultimate evil could work upon to win her over.
Even as a Forsaken, Lanfear sought to put herself into the spotlight first and above all.
That's the exact same story for the other 12.
She couldn't achieve fame, so she would achieve infamy instead, and she took no chance that she'd end up scorned, diminished or lost among the masses again, so she made herself the Daughter of the Night, and fought the WOS as a giant marketing campaign for Lanfear, the Queen of the Shadow.
Indeed. Mierin was undoubtedly lured by the promise of power - power which she could never attain by herself. She set herself up as a 'queen' and held large territories and used her power liberally.
The woman's utterly pathetic. Even by Forsaken standards, she's one of the vainest, most self-serving and egomaniac persons.
As opposed to Semirhage's altruism, or Be'lal's humility? She's no worse than the others by any means.
Either way, I don't agree with your character assessment. Mierin was not always as she is in the 3rd Age. She's obviously gone down the drain and is the worst of what a person can be. In the AOL she was probably a relatively accomplished woman who had a nasty seed that was waiting for the right influence. She made lots of bad choices and look at where she is now. The proof is all there. How could she be so ridiculous, pathetic and evil and still win over LTT? Her own dashain Aiel says that she wasn't always evil, a statement that got him hanged. Clearly she was not nearly as maligned as she is now.
I know many people who resemble Mierin. People who are generally 'good', but who you know should never be allowed to be in charge, because they'll abuse it. Flawed people are everywhere. It doesn't help to insinuate that they were born with daggers in their hands.
That's a bit offensive to working class people, but anyway I seriously doubt Ilyena was so important socially or as an Aes Sedai. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't, but her real greatness seems to have been her human qualities. She loved LTT and she brought him the balance he needed, was his anchor.
I'm pretty sure that she would have been an AS of considerable standing. Lews Therin calls Moiraine 'little Sister', implying that she would be a woman of lesser standing in his Age. It's a derogatory term that he would not use loosely if his own wife sat in that corner. Not only that, but I'm sure he had expectations placed upon him as to whom he could date, like most famous or powerful people who tend to date their own kind. I would be very surprised if Ilyena was a random woman, especially considering his ex was Mierin, who was not average either.
If she were so great an Aes Sedai, we would have heard about her influence with or against the Fateful Concord.
We only know about Latra Posae, so it's really inconclusive.
I don't think it's got anything to do with that.
What happened is that LTT had 50 years or more to build a fully realised, loving, mature and fruitful union with Ilyena. What his wife of 50 years could bring LTT must have counted a lot.
Rand could have none of that. He has a few adult years at most (at least before the LB), but it was vital for the world that he learned about love, that he found reasons not to become so dark he'd decide to end Creation. That's not an issue LTT had to face himself, with Ilyena and his family. He knew he wanted a future for the world.
Min, Aviendha and Elayne are an effort from the Wheel to place opportunities on Rand's path to experience love, with the good and bad sides. He can't develop a mature relationship of long years with a woman, as there is no time, and he couldn't stay in one place either (and neither could his lovers), so the Wheel gave him multiple women that would cross his path when needed, who would bond together, and all three of them care nothing for what Rand is, and only for him.
What happened is that LTT had 50 years or more to build a fully realised, loving, mature and fruitful union with Ilyena. What his wife of 50 years could bring LTT must have counted a lot.
Rand could have none of that. He has a few adult years at most (at least before the LB), but it was vital for the world that he learned about love, that he found reasons not to become so dark he'd decide to end Creation. That's not an issue LTT had to face himself, with Ilyena and his family. He knew he wanted a future for the world.
Min, Aviendha and Elayne are an effort from the Wheel to place opportunities on Rand's path to experience love, with the good and bad sides. He can't develop a mature relationship of long years with a woman, as there is no time, and he couldn't stay in one place either (and neither could his lovers), so the Wheel gave him multiple women that would cross his path when needed, who would bond together, and all three of them care nothing for what Rand is, and only for him.
Also a nice theory, but then essentially the same as saying that in combination they are effectively Ilyena.
Min gave Rand a perspective on non-channellers. Rand tended to treat them more and more like crap, but Min is there to remind him they're not sub-humans the mighty channeller can do anything he wants with. They have as every right as channellers to be involved, and make contributions. Fel, Min, Bashere, Perrin, Mat, Rhuarc etc. - they're all very very far from useless.
Aviendha gave Rand a people, or rather she will make him see the Aiel as his own people once he returns from DM. He might regain a lot of the ground he's lost with them by marrying Aviendha and getting her pregnant. That would be the most tangible proof he cares for the Aiel and their survival, because his children will be Aiel too.
Elayne's there to show him what being a leader of people really is about. Not tyranny, not power first, but being responsible for those above whom he stands. She will also be the first mother of his children, perhaps (even probably) his main legacy and his only future.
And all three are there to learn about love at his side.
A lot of this is awaiting Rand's return from his epiphany on DM to reach the final stages. For now, the women gave Rand enough that he understood like LTT what it is to really love, laughters and tears both included. The relationship to the three women, those veins of gold, has made a big contribution to Rand's final choice not to end it all and destroy the world. By destroying the CK, he doesn't have this choice anymore, and no human will have this choice for the world at large. Cowards will have to go the Amayar way if they don't want to face what's coming.. From then on, it's win or lose against Shai'tan.
Aviendha gave Rand a people, or rather she will make him see the Aiel as his own people once he returns from DM. He might regain a lot of the ground he's lost with them by marrying Aviendha and getting her pregnant. That would be the most tangible proof he cares for the Aiel and their survival, because his children will be Aiel too.
Elayne's there to show him what being a leader of people really is about. Not tyranny, not power first, but being responsible for those above whom he stands. She will also be the first mother of his children, perhaps (even probably) his main legacy and his only future.
And all three are there to learn about love at his side.
A lot of this is awaiting Rand's return from his epiphany on DM to reach the final stages. For now, the women gave Rand enough that he understood like LTT what it is to really love, laughters and tears both included. The relationship to the three women, those veins of gold, has made a big contribution to Rand's final choice not to end it all and destroy the world. By destroying the CK, he doesn't have this choice anymore, and no human will have this choice for the world at large. Cowards will have to go the Amayar way if they don't want to face what's coming.. From then on, it's win or lose against Shai'tan.
Yip.
That's BS. Lanfear has the appearance of charisma and self-confidence (that's largely a mask) and an imposing presence, while the girls were just girls, self-conscious and immature. Min was still fighting against her feminity,
Egwene would stand up to Lanfear very differently now. Oh, she'd understand Lanfear is much stronger and knows more about the OP than her, but she'd also understand she's otherwise her superior in every way. Egwene is a Mierin who has managed to keep her ambition and power thirst in check, and understood she had to put them to the service of something greater than herself. Egwene is well on the way to become the sort of woman Mierin should have been.
Egwene would stand up to Lanfear very differently now. Oh, she'd understand Lanfear is much stronger and knows more about the OP than her, but she'd also understand she's otherwise her superior in every way. Egwene is a Mierin who has managed to keep her ambition and power thirst in check, and understood she had to put them to the service of something greater than herself. Egwene is well on the way to become the sort of woman Mierin should have been.
I'm pretty sure Egwene could become a Forsaken under the right circumstances. The Dark One would just need to appeal to the right places. Egwene has more ambition than any two people.
Ouch! None of the Forsaken are attractive as human beings, and look what they've done with what they've got.
I meant physically attractive obviously. Half of the female Forsaken are more attractive than any living 3rd Age woman.
Look at what 50% of the so-called Aes Sedai have done with their talents, their vows and their duties. Everything point to a society where half the Aes Sedai didn't take their role as "servants of all" very seriously and jumped at the first occasion to give up this duty to serve to aggrandize their own power. Half the Aes Sedai got wasted in a giant race for power, and all there's left of them, the thirteen, continued the trend.
No, that's nonsense I think. RJ said outright that it was utopia. That's why everything went to hell. The people were naive regarding the nature of evil, because it was rare and barely existed in their world. When the ultimate evil descended on them, they couldn't handle it. People who have never experienced hatred who are suddenly flooded with hatred will obviously do poorly.
Even now, those still alive are still fighting for the top. Heck... Demandred and Lanfear have been in that self-serving race for ultimate power many years if not decades (or maybe centuries) before the Bore even existed...
A race Lews Therin himself may have been in. I'm sure he indulged his competition with Demandred as much as it worked the other way around. Lews Therin has a very personal desire to watch Demandred go down.
Maybe 20% of Aes Sedai of the NE, and probably a much smaller percentage of channellers on the whole (WO, Windfinders, Kin, Asha'man etc.) serve the Shadow in the third Age, so that's a massive improvement over the AOL mentality, the real one underneath the illusion they were truly the "servants of all". The Third Ages are proving themselves better than their highly educated, too pampered ancestors. Egocentrism still exist, it's still especially strong among the privileged classes, but it's already a big improvement over the AOL society...
Third Age people grew up with evil, much like we did. By the time we're adults we're aware of how evil the world can be. No one in the AOL had that luxury/curse, and it was suddenly thrust on them.
Lan admires her strength, her selflessness, her sense of responsability, her sense of community and how much she cares for her people, her sense of self-sacrifice. She was the Queen of her village. Nynaeve is also a real "Servant of All", her authority and power she used to serve others. She's not the equal of AOLers, she's in many ways their superior, with her priorities in the right place. None of that comes from her skills with the OP, it's all her personality, her choices and her accomplishments as a human being. Nynaeve as Wisdom is what Lan would wish to be but can't, and instead he's saddled himself with being the glrofied bodyguard of a single woman. He was fighting the Shadow with Moiraine as a substitute for his real duties. He's rejected his role as leader. Nynaeve showed him the hard way he had no choice, that's it's his duty to raise the Golden Crane and bring his people together, to defend the Borderlands.
She was disliked by the citizens of Emonds Field, and even Egwene harboured lasting animosity towards her because of how she treated her as an apprentice. IMO Nynaeve grew as a person only after she left the village, after Moiraine showed her up as a bitter and short-sighted girl.
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Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Matching the Dragon with a mate
- 02/06/2010 10:09:49 AM
1457 Views
I think there is more to these women than simply being the Dragon's Mate
- 02/06/2010 12:09:10 PM
790 Views
What more IS there to being a woman?
- 02/06/2010 03:52:23 PM
848 Views
Re: What more IS there to being a woman?
- 02/06/2010 04:58:36 PM
700 Views
Re: What more IS there to being a woman?
- 03/06/2010 08:51:25 AM
641 Views
riiiight
- 03/06/2010 11:20:31 AM
565 Views
Re: riiiight
- 03/06/2010 01:53:49 PM
684 Views
the problem with your working out how strong they are is that it always begins with how much
- 03/06/2010 02:14:08 PM
706 Views
Re: the problem with your working out how strong they are is that it always begins with how much
- 03/06/2010 02:23:32 PM
774 Views
I never said that's all they were
- 03/06/2010 08:49:53 AM
667 Views
Re: I never said that's all they were
- 03/06/2010 11:44:51 AM
701 Views
Yeah Nynaeve is fantastic
- 02/06/2010 12:48:56 PM
714 Views
- 02/06/2010 12:48:56 PM
714 Views
oh dear god no
- 02/06/2010 02:41:13 PM
676 Views
Back in the concept days I believe the DR was more like Tam and the love interest
- 02/06/2010 02:55:45 PM
719 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate
- 02/06/2010 02:15:35 PM
886 Views
*NM*
Great post, but I would disagree with the top part
- 02/06/2010 05:58:59 PM
750 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate
- 03/06/2010 09:27:05 AM
756 Views
LOL
- 03/06/2010 12:01:27 PM
618 Views
Re: LOL
- 03/06/2010 12:41:20 PM
622 Views
Excellent point!
- 03/06/2010 12:50:03 PM
641 Views
Re: Excellent point!
- 03/06/2010 01:34:04 PM
836 Views
Re: Excellent point!
- 03/06/2010 02:05:19 PM
733 Views
Ah, so by great you mean Ghandi, and not Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great...
- 05/06/2010 08:57:52 AM
569 Views
I think there is more to these characters than being a mate, and I don't think the Pattern cares.
- 02/06/2010 03:23:13 PM
686 Views
Re: I think there is more to these characters than being a mate, and I don't think the Pattern cares
- 02/06/2010 03:40:38 PM
679 Views
I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way.
- 02/06/2010 05:14:08 PM
849 Views
Re: I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way.
- 02/06/2010 08:30:32 PM
649 Views
- 02/06/2010 10:42:17 PM
639 Views
- 02/06/2010 10:42:17 PM
639 Views
Meh. How do we know they aren't awarded the way the Nobel Peace Prize is in our world?
- 02/06/2010 11:33:48 PM
672 Views
I don't know if Lanfear, the perfect woman didn't have a 3rd name it must have been
- 02/06/2010 11:49:02 PM
589 Views