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Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer DomA Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
But I certainly think he fits the clues from the books and what RJ said best.

It was reported that RJ said Asmo is "roadkill". In slang that simply means - and I cite the free dictionary, but there are similar definitions elsewhere, too - : "One that has failed or been defeated and is no longer worthy of consideration." It's certainly not meant in its literal meaning, namely that Asmo is "an animal killed by being struck by a motor vehicle", since that wouldn't make much sense. Meriam Webster even defines roadkill as "one that falls victim to intense competition <political roadkill>", which would support the idea of a fellow Forsaken sending a killer to assassinate the rival Asmo.


Perhaps you're not just familar with the various ways Americans and Canadians use this expression.

The first definition you give doesn't apply to the context. RJ could have used it this way if, for example, he was explaining to someone how Asmodean ended up with Rand, ie: "the guy is a road kill. He thought he could play with the big fish and got squashed between Lanfear and Rand".

It's the murder he called a "road kill", not Asmodean.

That's not what the expression would mean when you describe a murder as a "road kill".

He's no "political road kill" either. That's for people in politics and in this case the expression means to compare the weakness of the animal in comparison to the truck/car coming at it... You get ruined, because you're much too weak for your opponents, or because your were a nuisance in their way.

All these expressions are derived from metaphor derived from the literal meaning behind it: a little animal that's in the wrong place at the wrong time and get killed by a coming car that didn't see it or can't stop, before the animal manages to jump away.

In the context RJ used it to describe a murder, not its motive,(incl. the fact he also called it "a murder of opportunity";), "road kill" implies the killer wasn't in the room waiting for Asmodean. Asmodean opened the wrong door at the wrong time and surprised someone who would kill him given the chance. He was in the way of that person. It's someone who killed Asmodean first and above all because he couldn't let him live. Most likely, it's someone Asmodean would have killed, capture or otherwise put in big trouble if that person didn't kill him first. It either that has to do with who that person is, or what he/she was doing there, or both combined.

The other way to interpret it doesn't apply, as it contradicts the fact it's a murder of opportunity, and the other quote about opportunity being more important than motive. It would be to say RJ meant Asmodean was in the way of bigger fish who took him out for this reason. It would explain the motive. That would point to whoever wanted Taim near Rand. But as I said, this can't be because it contradicts other quotes, so RJ meant almost literally a "road kill": Asmodean got at the wrong place at the wrong time.

RJ also said that "timing is what you should focus on" and it's reported "he emphasized OPPORTUNITY as the key to knowing Asmodean's killer, even over motive (which got a mention)".


Of course, but here's a more down to earth way to interpret this:

a) The timing is important. There's not much to puzzle out about the pacing of the Asmodean scene (except to conclude it has to be a murder of opportunity, which RJ has confirmed). What we know about the timing is that the murder happened a few hours after Rahvin's death and a few more after Lanfear's disappearance in Cairhien. It also happens hours after Moghedien disappeared. Who would have a reason to be in the palace that very day, at that time? Graendal, Sammael, Demandred. Perhaps Mesaana and Semirhage as well. More than one of these people may have come to Caemlyn (Demandred did, apparently - visited spies of his anyway), just one of them killed Asmodean. Graendal has the best clues attached to her as far as curiosity or "need to know" goes, because we know Asmodean knew her hiding place, she was involved with Rahvin and the plan to bring Rand's attention of Sammael,she's learned about Lanfear at the docks, and Rahvin's death, and she's convinced Asmodean died that day as well, and Moghedien, who miss the meeting she had scheduled with Graendal that same day. Sammael has the least, because he claims not to know about these things. The motive of the others to come to Caemlyn is weaker, because unlike Graendal and Sammael they were not involved. For them, it would be desire to know more than need to know.

b) Opportunity over motive.

You don't seem to understand what this really means, because it undermines your theory. Slayer coming to the palace to kill Asmodean on someone's orders isn't "opportunity over motive". The motive would be the only drive behind his presence in Caemlyn, the opportunity he merely created by tracking down Asmodean's comings and goings. Your theory is the very opposite of the meaning of "opportunity over motive". It's the description of a manhunt, an assassination. Opportunity over motive means the killer wasn't there to kill Asmodean, and wouldn't have gone out of his way to ambush or killed Asmodean if the opportunity to kill him didn't fall right in the killer's lap, that place, that day. It means if Slayer did it, he wasn't in the palace to kill Asmodean but for another purpose or mission, and he did kill Asmodean only because the opportunity suddenly presented itself. The problem is that RJ also confirmed that the Dark One never gave the order to anyone to kill Asmodean on sight, so Slayer would not have taken it upon himself to kill Asmodean, and we don't even actually know if Isam ever learned that Asmodean had betrayed the Shadow. The defection of a Chosen, that even such a thing is possible, is hardly the sort of thing the Shadow would tell to the underlings - even the fact Cyndane and Moghedien are being punished is kept secret from the other Chosen themselves... Most likely Isam doesn't know, only the other Chosen do, and perhaps not even all of them. Lanfear came up with that story (which she invented. She's in truth the traitor) and told Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin. Sammael and Rahvin would definitely not tell this to Demandred, which means not to Mesaana and Semirhage either. Graendal? Maybe, maybe not. There's not much incentive to share the news, given that taking out Asmodean could be rewarded by Shai'tan. Lanfear has zero motive to spread the news beyond her trio... the last thing she wanted was Demandred and company to come kill the teacher she's worked hard to provide to Rand. She told the three solely because she wanted them to agree to work together - and she made clear she had this under control and kept a close eye on Rand, and could get near him. Of course, Demandred learned straight from Shai'tan that Asmodean had betrayed (and he told Semirhage and Mesaana), but that's after the murder. But there is no evidence at all that Moghedien learned about Asmodean and his betrayal, or that Aran'gar and Osan'gar were told. There's not even evidence Moridin knows. They most likely all know about it (and Moridin may even have forced the true story out of Cyndane), but there's no evidence.


The rest of your theory as it stands right now is full of holes:

a) The text gives no clue that Asmodean could have been spied on or followed. It actually read as if this possibility is most, most unlikely

b) You misinterpret "road kill", "murder of opportunity" and other aspects of the RJ quotes.

c) You would be hard pressed to show us a clue that Slayer is the killer in the next two books, when RJ said there were clues in there.

d) You are one of the only person who believes any of the Chosen, wholly arrogant, would be humble enough to think Slayer would be a good choice to hunt and kill one of them. They would probably all laugh at the very notion. Most people who believe Slayer did it don't know RJ said the DO didn't order anyone to kill Asmodean (he would most likely have mindtrapped him if he could have..)

e) You create a whole ellipse in which Slayer brings Asmodean to TAR to die, when the text doesn't even open a door for anything like this to have taken place. As it reads, Asmodean died where he stood, and his death scream hung in the air.
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An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM 2510 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery.... - 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM 1249 Views
Surely, there can never be enough Asmo threads! *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 693 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer... - 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM 1059 Views
It's not really obvious... - 28/05/2010 09:08:27 AM 989 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments - 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM 902 Views
Far-fetched, IMO - 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM 1360 Views
very well said *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:19:10 PM 712 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM 1042 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so! - 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM 1129 Views
Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM 1005 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM 1073 Views
The point is... - 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM 1070 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler - 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM 1122 Views
As is Slayer - 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM 995 Views
There is no evidence of this at all - 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM 976 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys - 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM 940 Views
so far we've seen Slayer kill a sleeping guy and his wife - 28/05/2010 12:45:14 PM 955 Views
I disagree. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:50:02 PM 1075 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say.... - 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM 1029 Views
I think this is your interpretation - 28/05/2010 02:50:14 PM 983 Views
Yeah right... - 27/05/2010 08:35:35 PM 1096 Views
See my replies above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:40:42 AM 881 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 28/05/2010 08:28:16 AM 850 Views
See my repy to DomA. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:39:15 AM 841 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't - 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM 1165 Views
We often see... - 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM 1037 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious - 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM 1123 Views
Ok, as we said in the other thread, let's RAFO! *NM* - 27/05/2010 05:57:49 PM 1127 Views
Agreed *NM* - 27/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 635 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM 972 Views
Well... - 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM 1023 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM 1028 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above - 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM 973 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex! - 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM 1012 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense - 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM 964 Views
common sense? - 28/05/2010 12:51:25 PM 981 Views
See my posts above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:50:56 PM 1003 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM 1140 Views
No... - 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM 1060 Views
let's try this another way - 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM 1051 Views
The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM 977 Views
Graendal has a pretty significant role in TFoH - 28/05/2010 06:54:39 PM 1009 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM 1114 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal. - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM 1146 Views
RJ used the expression... - 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM 955 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself - 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM 1065 Views
Re: No... - 28/05/2010 03:38:49 PM 934 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM 995 Views
Couple of questions - 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM 1020 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO! - 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM 885 Views
Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM 1004 Views
Re: Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:34:30 PM 903 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves - 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM 906 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that. - 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM 986 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly - 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM 1067 Views
We've seen it done. - 28/05/2010 06:32:08 PM 924 Views
Not the same thing - 28/05/2010 07:00:13 PM 903 Views
Re: Couple of questions - 28/05/2010 03:29:29 PM 1067 Views
As said... - 28/05/2010 08:36:28 AM 1004 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM* - 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM 530 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM 1025 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM 998 Views
But look... - 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM 1033 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved - 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM 941 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM 988 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM 1004 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM 1060 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM 917 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM 982 Views
??? - 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM 970 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM 986 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT - 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM 774 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM 935 Views
Re: Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM 887 Views
LOL!! - 28/05/2010 03:29:35 PM 736 Views
Too much? - 28/05/2010 05:16:44 PM 999 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO - 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM 1105 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM* - 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM 649 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? - 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM 807 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM 1017 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM 1212 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM 715 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM 1158 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 06:19:18 PM 940 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 09:16:21 PM 954 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo..... - 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM 914 Views
Doesn't make sense - 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM 947 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it..... - 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM 888 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more *NM* - 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM 646 Views
There is a quote that refutes this... - 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM 1000 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory - 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM 910 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer... - 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM 974 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that - 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM 933 Views
Well, I don't think so. - 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM 948 Views
yet he never gave an answer like this one - 29/05/2010 02:57:35 PM 1033 Views
Again... - 29/05/2010 03:09:06 PM 1033 Views
Taking things NO - 29/05/2010 03:12:24 PM 1003 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM 836 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him - 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM 838 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM* - 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM 880 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books" - 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM 849 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM 921 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM 834 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM* - 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM 642 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books - 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM 772 Views
I'm relieved then... - 07/06/2010 12:13:58 PM 792 Views
it's nearly as simplistic as knowing Graendal did it - 07/06/2010 12:48:42 PM 932 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM 1013 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he. - 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM 957 Views
That's what I've always thought as well. - 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM 871 Views
That's always been my theory too - 29/05/2010 10:18:30 PM 987 Views
*nods* - 29/05/2010 11:23:18 PM 1004 Views
Re: That's always been my theory too - 30/05/2010 07:35:50 AM 927 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised"..... - 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM 886 Views
That's why I said "I think" and offered my opinion. - 01/06/2010 09:46:09 PM 899 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity - 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM 913 Views
That is simply false. - 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM 952 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only" - 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM 1020 Views
Of course, it is false - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM 941 Views
Here are the quotes - 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM 877 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM 646 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to - 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM 800 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM 486 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM 697 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM 974 Views
Well... - 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM 964 Views
Logic - 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM 913 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there... - 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM 917 Views
I'm just being a smartass *NM* - 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM 660 Views
It's good that Etzel sticks to his guns - 06/06/2010 04:42:01 PM 1027 Views
OMG, Taim and Mesaana were getting it on in the pantry - 06/06/2010 09:49:57 PM 888 Views
That reminds me... - 19/06/2010 04:46:58 AM 910 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense. *NM* - 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM 952 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is - 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM 896 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM 965 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over - 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM 952 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful... *NM* - 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM 881 Views
No they show that she is deliberate! - 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM 980 Views
That are just semantics - 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM 1047 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH? - 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM 933 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes... - 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM 903 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point? - 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM 987 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 1023 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM 988 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it... - 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM 956 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled - 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM 1051 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said. - 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM 824 Views
um no it's not - 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM 904 Views
It's told after that... - 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM 873 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place - 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM 1055 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM 953 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ... - 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM 945 Views
Ah, whatever... - 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM 845 Views
We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM 924 Views
Re: We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:52:37 PM 999 Views
LMAO - 07/06/2010 06:07:16 PM 1374 Views
I promised Etzel long ago... - 19/06/2010 04:49:11 AM 920 Views

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