Why should that matter exactly? Jordan put a few clues for the maniacs, but never really intended most the readers to figure out what happened (he would have kept putting in more obvious clues if he did). The murder of Asmodean was irrelevant to him in the grander picture, he planned not to reveal what happened.
In my view, the relative irrelevance points to a "regular" kill of an assassin, like we saw e.g. in the Stone or in the WT before. But that a Forsaken is killed by a rival in the territory of the enemy would be an extraordinary exception in the series.
Also RJ's several statements that all the clues are in the books up to and including TFoH, that you have to combine those clues & read closely, and that only one fan has managed to figure it out (not BS or Wilson, for example), speaks against the simple explanation that Graendal - who didn't even appear before TFoH and only in two little scenes in TFoH - was an obvious candidate, because she just needed spies in the palace. That still the majority of people support this idea makes it even more unlikely that it was Graendal, since RJ made clear that the majority is wrong.
If you rule out Graendal and Sammael for this reason that we didn't know they would be the type to want spies among the servants, then you have to rule out Slayer as well, as we had no idea the/a Forsaken was using him for "find and kill" missions. (we see Graendal use compelled people beside her pets in the following book, I'd remind you, though). Yes, Slayer has killed people for the Forsaken before Asmodean died, but in the same way Graendal also got herself many spies before Asmodean died: off-screen, without us suspecting. There's not even a clue in TSR that Slayer was in the Two Rivers to kill Fain (and I don't think he was, as you know) - it's in WH we knew he was a killer.
For example the Dark Prophecy makes it very clear that the Shadow is using Slayer as an assassin, and then it's also clear that the Forsaken know him. Anyway, I just have problems to see a careful Forsaken so soon infiltrating a foreign territory without much protection (as said, at least an usual MoM), especially if there are probably no servants around yet after a devasting battle.
As you agree, Sammael would be even more likely than Graendal at this time, since he explicitely told that he would kill Asmo if he meets him. Therefore the Graendal-explanation can't be meant to be "intuitively obvious", because it would fit Sammael even better. Therefore the explanation for the obvious candidate is rather that it was simply done by a killer, nicknamed Slayer, who assassinated other people in the series in secluded locations before.
The most obvious suspects in TFOH were Graendal or Sammael. I thought it must be one from the foursome who did it right off the bat, so yes that was an obvious possibility. Lanfear was a longer shot, because of Moiraine's bond snapping and the doorway melting. I thought Sammael more likely of the three, back then, and I thought the murder was an execution (when in fact it's an unpremeditated murder of oppportunity). Did I suspect the reason a Forsaken was there was something else than killing Asmodean? No, but by the end of LOC I did suspect it might have had to do with finding out spies in the palace. Could I have deduced in TFOH that Graendal like Sammael must have wanted to know what Rand was really up to and went to find spies near him? Yes, especially that it's revealed in the book that Asmodean knew where she hid.
See above.
We also knows Graendal has spies near Rand in Caemlyn. It's a fact. Someone reported to her what happened to Sammael's messenger in the throne room. It doesn't mean her spies are servants or palace personel, but it's proven that she's got herself spies in Caemlyn.
But that could have happened some days after Asmo was killed by Slayer, sent by Graendal. In fact, if no Forsaken is around, it would be easier for Graendal to Compel the servants, since Asmo might notice something odd.
The reason for the murder is that Asmodean opened the wrong door and bumped in someone who then killed him. The servants are not connected in any way to the murder, and the real reason the killer was around isn't connected to the murder either, except as pure chance. Jordan was specifically ruling out the "two servants were Forsaken in disguise" theory when he said that. He wanted to make clear the servants were not suspects.
However, if servants in the palace are still the reason why the killer was there, it seems a bit false to say that the servants we actually see in the palace are in no way connected (but basically other servants, who usually work there).
In doesn't make sense in the context of the scene. Put yourself in her shoes. She's in the palace, on her guard. She's waiting for Renee to be brought to her (or she is with her already). She's not relaxing taking tea in the pantry, she's eager to be done and go (mind you, in Illian after searching the stash she remained behind idly to observe Rand and Asha'man emptying the room - so maybe Graendal wasn't even as nervous as I suppose she might have been in Caemlyn. In Illian she had no reason to think Rand was about to come after her next, though, while after Rahvin's murder she had many reasons to fear she'd be next, not Sammael. It was even too early to be sure yet Lanfear was not behind the betrayal). Asmodean opens the door and recognizes her and exclaims that out loud "you!". She has no idea why he's there. Is it accidental or has she miscalculated and there are channellers searching the palace room by room? Is he alone or Rand or others are a few feet down the corridor? Her instinct would be to kill him before he kills her, with something he can't parry or weave against, to gain time to weave a gateway and flee in the confusion (she has no time to open her gateway in front of Asmodean, she'll die before she's on the other side), not trying to capture him. Trying to capture him is what she would have done if she was forewarned, or safe, or had time to consider her options (which is exactly what she did in the Cyndane/Moghedien visit). Trying to capture him in the circumstances of the murder as we know them could have cost her her life, if Rand and WO were 10 feet behind Asmodean. Nobody was, but the killer Asmodean surprised could not know that, whoever that person was.
Graendal must have known at least that Asmo is somewhere in the palace. Thus it only makes sense that she must have been prepared to eventually bump into him, if she has really bad luck. And therefore only a MoM makes sense. Since then she could talk with Asmo without any risk, check if anyone is near and then capture him surprisingly.
Actually, we know the DO could only if he doesn't miss his much smaller window of opportunity. Jordan never went into the reasons that could make the DO miss his window, what for instance could delay or complicate his search for a soul. He never explained what the DO had to do to seize a soul. Can he pinpoint the location in the pattern precisely. Can he do this instantly. Is he just aware a Forsaken has died and he must search for the soul rapidly? He only spoke of various factors and the only one he spoke of explicitely is the time constraint. We know there can be a "where" factor, but that's all we know about this.
In his Q&A about this, RJ just said that it is possible for the DO to transmigrate someone who was balefired, if the balefire is very weak. But now it is argued that this only works if the person is also close enough to SG, which was never stated before. Therefore I don't buy this explanation.
I'm sure he does, but he had no intention to reveal it, and I doubt he came up with a complex murder story involving a chain of events etc. He wanted to get rid of Asmo, so he created a reason why someone would be in the palace, Asmo would bump into that person and become a "road kill". He needed to have a basic story established, for continuity purposes.
Yeah, and I think a general order by Graendal for Slayer to kill Asmo, if he finds him, fits that.
Your version of the murder is too complex, involve too many revelations about TAR, about Slayer's speculated gifts we don't know about, and that obviously Jordan didn't plan to reveal because of Asmodean's murder, as he didn't plan to explain the murder... There's also no concrete clue about Slayer in the two following books, when Jordan says there are.
As said above, the revelation can't be too simple, but also not too complex. IMO, the Graendal (or maybe another Forsaken) sent Slayer-theory is neither too simply but also not too complex if one connects all clues from the books before LoC. In LoC we see Slayer for example stalking in TAR. Also in LoC the expression that a word "hung in the air" is repeated, when Rand is attacked by a Gray Man-assassin and shoves Aviendha aside, which could indicate that it was also an assassination in Asmo's case. Besides that, other candidates are ruled out, for example.
a) It was a murder of opportunity. Jordan says so, and the circumstances corroborate it, as Asmodean himself didn't know he would open that door seconds before he did. You can't have Slayer tracking down Asmodean in the corridor to kill him on the orders of someone else and in the seconds it took Asmodean to veer toward the small door and open it, Slayer went in TAR, ran all the way (Slayer always walks and runs in TAR, don't forget that detail...) and found himself out of TAR on the other side of the door all ready to kill Asmodean mere seconds later. That's not a murder of opportunity, it's a manhunt that ends in improvised circumstances, an assassination. Find me a good reason why Slayer was in the palace and by accident Asmodean bumped into him and Slayer killed him, and we'll get somewhere.
Slayer got the general order to kill Asmo, if he finds him. By chance (maybe searching for Fain or since he also worked for Rahvin before) Slayer sees Asmo, when he spies in the Caemlyn Palace. Considering that at least Luc knows the palace certainly very well, it makes sense that Slayer would use this opportunity to finish Asmo, when he realized that Asmo was walking alone to a secluded place of the palace.
b) Explain to me how Slayer knew Asmodean was "diminished" enough he could risk taking him out face-on. No one but Lanfear, Rand and Moiraine knew that, and Lanfear would most definitely have told Slayer not to get cocky because Asmodean could still channel as fast as ever for all that he couldn't do it strongly. The only credible way Slayer could take out Asmodean safely was while he slept, or with a projectile weapon of some kind and before Asmodean saw him, or if he was surprised by Asmodean and had no choice but to try to kill him, because his own survival depended on it. Otherwise, if Slayer was really on the hunt to kill Asmodean, he would have done it differently. Find where he slept and slit his throat, for instance.
I think the whole scene from opening the door till Asmo's death took at least some seconds. That's enough time to kill a channeler with a poisoned crossbow bolt, if he is simply too surprised to act fast enough.
c) Show me the clues in the next two books that point to Slayer, because Jordan says there are clues.
See above.
d) Find me a good reason why Asmodean didn't channel and kill Slayer. No wound kills fast enough, no poison acts fast enough that an Asmodean who isn't waking up and confused wouldn't have time to strike back with a nasty weave, even if he died seconds after.
I disagree. I think you can stun/kill a channeler fast enough, as several channelers and scenes in the series emphazise.
There are other problems, for instance the fact Slayer appears and disappears to TAR and it's totally speculative that he could bring someone with him for the ride when he does that (we never saw him do anything even remotely like this), but this can't be resolved with the books and have to remain purely speculative.
If he can bring his clothes and weapons, I don't see why not a body.
No, this is not logical to link these events, because these murders were executions ordered to Slayer by someone, while Asmodean was just a "road kill" (Jordan's expression) and a murder of opportunity. A murder of opportunity is a murder that is decided in the spur of a moment, not a premeditated murder or the improvised end to a manhunt. A road kill is a small animal that picks the wrong place and time to cross the road and gets rolled over. The car isn't there to kill the small animal, it just goes right over it because it's in the way and the car can,t stop. Put 1 + 1 together, and Jordan was saying Asmodean just got at the wrong place at the wrong time, that the person beyond the door wasn't there to kill Asmodean but did it on the spur of the moment, because Asmodean was "in the way" and it was the only solution (ie: it was kill Asmodean or be killed by Asmodean).
See above.
Most of the Forsaken shared the motive to meddle with Rand's servants in order to gain intelligence on what happened and what Rand planned next. Slayer doesn't have that motive, so what was he doing there, in that area of the palace, when Asmodean surprised him and got killed?
See above.
I am determined to prove, before it's revealed, that Lanfear killed Asmodean.
- 26/05/2010 05:36:59 AM
1140 Views
It's unlikely
- 26/05/2010 09:17:06 AM
818 Views
Re: It's unlikely
- 26/05/2010 02:04:08 PM
776 Views
Well...
- 26/05/2010 03:09:38 PM
770 Views
A few points
- 26/05/2010 03:50:12 PM
555 Views
Re: A few points
- 26/05/2010 04:07:15 PM
632 Views
Re: A few points
- 26/05/2010 04:23:39 PM
631 Views
Re: A few points
- 26/05/2010 05:26:27 PM
612 Views
Actually I believe...
- 26/05/2010 06:00:55 PM
677 Views
Re: Actually I believe...
- 26/05/2010 07:04:51 PM
670 Views
I think...
- 26/05/2010 07:35:16 PM
602 Views
Re: I think...
- 26/05/2010 07:47:19 PM
549 Views
IMO, the difference is that Ishy was strongly connected to the DO, when he died in TAR. *NM*
- 26/05/2010 07:55:47 PM
292 Views
Re: IMO, the difference is that Ishy was strongly connected to the DO, when he died in TAR.
- 26/05/2010 08:25:36 PM
568 Views
But Ishy channeled the TP; thus the DO was more aware of him in TAR. *NM*
- 26/05/2010 08:33:45 PM
264 Views
I don't see how that really makes a difference
- 26/05/2010 08:43:58 PM
583 Views
At least Asmo didn't channel the TP, when he died; this could be the difference to Ishy. *NM*
- 26/05/2010 08:46:44 PM
267 Views
Re: At least Asmo didn't channel the TP, when he died; this could be the difference to Ishy.
- 26/05/2010 09:23:10 PM
552 Views
Well, the TP is not related to who killed Asmo, in my view
- 26/05/2010 09:34:42 PM
605 Views
That doesn't make sense
- 26/05/2010 09:40:10 PM
575 Views
That has nothing to do with the identity of the killer.
- 26/05/2010 09:56:18 PM
526 Views
I still think you are making this more convluted than it needs to be
- 26/05/2010 10:21:26 PM
593 Views
You confuse two things...
- 27/05/2010 09:46:56 AM
505 Views
But your theory completely relies on this thought
- 27/05/2010 11:48:48 AM
517 Views
I argue...
- 27/05/2010 12:20:09 PM
695 Views
we don't know any of that until WH
- 27/05/2010 12:49:53 PM
665 Views
Your explanation how the "where" is significant matches what I've been saying for awhile, too. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 09:49:02 PM
298 Views
You disregard Jordan's explanations about the Finns... and some others...
- 26/05/2010 12:50:30 PM
715 Views
I'm 80% sure it's Graendal, with 20% left over for Moghedien
- 26/05/2010 02:00:09 PM
595 Views
Moghedien would be quite the trick
- 26/05/2010 02:17:57 PM
567 Views
Re: Moghedien would be quite the trick
- 26/05/2010 02:26:23 PM
588 Views
Re: Moghedien would be quite the trick
- 26/05/2010 03:06:49 PM
600 Views
Yep. More impressive than the guy who was killed by a shepherd, right? =)
- 27/05/2010 03:44:07 PM
551 Views