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Re: Indeed DomA Send a noteboard - 05/05/2010 05:08:20 PM
Only Egwene's dream where she sees the Tower as a flickering lamp (flame) attacked by ravens has been fulfilled. The one where she climbs a steep cliff with the summit hidden by clouds and a Seanchan woman with a sword on her bck appears and tells her together they can reach the top (previously interpreted as "a Seanchan woman will save her during the attack", but this interpretation was wrong) has not yet been fulfilled.


There will come more yet. Another not yet fulfilled Dream is the one about "Rand confronting her [Egwene], and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan." This Dream is likely linked in some way to the one about the cliff.


Perhaps. Probably even. The wholly metaphorical fulfillement of the "beggar with a staff" wolf-dream in TGS has strongly reinforced the views of those like me who advocate that Dreams in particular (over viewings and foretellings that are a bit more concrete) are very metaphorical in nature, which is why they are so hard to puzzle out. To interpret them, Egwene has to be introspective and puzzle out what the symbolism means to her, what her own subconscious associates with these symbols.

The cliff she climbed, with the summit unseen, could represent Dragonmount and by extent Rand. It could mean that before they can understand Rand/reconcile themselves with Rand (or his actions, like his offer to go the BT that looks to be leading into a disaster - the envoys from the Tower/Rebels killed or worse... and that after Logain had told Rand Taim was a DF), Egwene and Tuon will need to put aside their differences and be allied when they are reunited with Rand.

But I rather tend to think that the steep climb represents the hard fight for the Light (or survival for humanity), the Last Battle. The Light that shines on the summit (ie: the sun) is still hidden by the clouds. A bit like Rand had literally to stand above the cloud line and stand in the light of the rising sun when he had his epiphany, metaphorically Egwene seems to have no choice but to make an alliance with Tuon for the Light to stand a chance at TG, or neither of them will ever reach the summit and see the Light again. It may mean that the only way the Seanchan and Tower will get behind Rand is by ending their own conflict first.

Not only this dream isn't fulfilled, but I think it isn't even finished. Egwene wasn't ready and refused to see the vision to its end, and it stopped (she was thrown into another dream). Dreams are about possibilities, and Egwene refused that possibility and made the vision stop. She wasn't shown what stands above the clouds at the summit and why she must reach it, because she rejected out of hands that to reach the top she must do so together with the Seanchan woman. After the Tower attack, she's even less likely to accept those visions of an alliance with a Seanchan when they return, but I think it's precisely her challenge. She has to remember to open her mind for her Dreaming talent to bloom. She must call those visions accept to see them through, as she's done in TGS, using TAR to see the paths before her.

Generally speaking, I see two possibilities. This dream could be fulfilled in ToM, if Tuon is part of the "main cast" that gets reunited at "the event that start TG". I think the Seanchan might be present, but I'm not convinced yet they will. It will likely happen very soon after the attack on the Tower (a few weeks later, at most, but probably faster), and it may be too early yet for them to master Travelling and use it to get north fast.

I'm also not convinced RJ intended to solve all the internal problems of the Light before TG started. A very great deal has been made of the fact fighting the Shadow ahead with the Seanchan on your back could be disastrous. I tend to doubt this is simply a "red herring". The way things unfolded in TGS, it seemed that threat was built up and increased even after being acknowledged by Rand who tried and failed to find a solution, not brought to the point of resolution. As there's only a few Rand and Egwene "bridge chapters" in ToM as per Brandon, I tend to doubt resolution to the Rand-Egwene-Seanchan conflict will take place in ToM, unless it all happens through the "event that starts TG" (which I have little doubt will be a gigantic battle at and around Caemlyn). It could be, but the alliance with the Seanchan might rather happen as a reversal during TG itself, after a disastrous beginning for the Light. One reason that make me think so is that I expect Mat to go to Ghenjei by mid-book at the earliest, and I expect Mat has a role to play in the Seanchan resolution, which could mean the possibilities of resolution won't start before Mat is reunited with Rand and Egwene and they learn who he is married to.. and he learns what his wife has done lately. The divisions within the Light have always been as big if not bigger a threat than the Shadow, though often they were the results of schemes by the Shadow. I doubt RJ intended to change that too early in the finale, not when it's been for so long his characters' main problem.

To get back to the Dreams, I think they are more likely to refer to a "story line" or theme than to a single event. The staff, the clothes and the bandages on his eyes were fairly irrelevant to the fulfillement, literally speaking. The staff represented Rand needing support to keep going, the beggary was his near destroyed mind and the bandage represented how he had blinded himself.

Egwene's dream about Perrin was also mostly a metaphor. Aram never ran after Perrin, and there never was a cliff ahead of them. This represented how Aram's problems were catching up to Perrin and threatening him, and the cliff ahead was their eventual deaths if Perrin didn't turn and see the threat in time. The sword was more than a weapon, it was Perrin's mistake with Aram. A sword can't replace a family/people. Perrin gave Aram a way for revenge and that sword turned against him in the end when Perrin failed to live up to Aram's admiration opening the door for Masema to turn him against his "idol", not a way to cope with his loss and anger.

I think Egwene's dreams about the Seanchan woman (both of them) will also be largely metaphorical. There likely won't be anything to climb, or clouds or a summit, and there may not be an actual face-off with Rand and a big group of women among which Egwene and a Seanchan either. There may not even be an actual sword on the Seanchan's back (having a sword on your back could symbolize having armies behind you, or being a soldier, or the sword could represent the concept of Justice) and the Seanchan woman's face kept changing in the dream, so she may not even be a single woman but representing all the sul'dam through Tuon, or a group of them. We don't know what made Egwene feel the woman was Seanchan - she's never seen any who dress or have their hair like Tuon and she's definitely not specified the woman looked like a Seanchan Queen/Empress or even a High Lady. But that's not terribly important either; sometimes people are represented symbolically (eg: a Tinker instead of Aram, and probably Rand as the dying man who isn't dead yet but people outside the tent think he is) in Egwene's dreams.

Of course, the Egeanin possibility is back on the agenda. Being with Mat it was terribly difficult to see how she could possibly be involved, so a lot of us ruled her out on the basis that the dream of the Seanchan woman was linked to the dream of the attack. But if the ToM climax is indeed in Caemlyn, then it's no longer far fetched (it's actually quite likely) that Egeanin is reunited with Elayne soon, and may also meet Egwene. There are also the Seanchan "prisoners" in Elayne's entourage, and the trainees of Teslyn. This may be the group the woman with a changing face represents. I don't see what great role they could play to "help each other" and "reach the summit" together with Egwene (Setalle Anan would likely have more wisdom to tell to an Amyrlin about the Seanchan leader and her worldview than Egeanin and co.), but I still wouldn't rule out the possibility, especially since it's the one "group" of Seanchan exclusively consistiting of women, and soldiers all of them, we know about, and now they're all in the same city, where at least four "storylines" (Mat, Elayne, Egwene's next challenge with the BT envoys, and Logain) will converge, and probably the climax of the book will bring the other story lines (Rand, Perrin, Aviendha etc) there too.

Tylee is another. She's the one Seanchan woman who sees that her leaders are erring and the Light should unite or the Shadow will wipe them out. Maybe that was just to contrast with Tuon's attitude when she refused Rand's alliance, but there's probably more to it than just that. If in the LB Tuon seems to follow a path to disaster, her soldiers may not stand for it to the end.





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Egwene's Dream fulfilled? - 05/05/2010 05:16:43 AM 974 Views
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No, and the reason is simple - 05/05/2010 06:39:33 AM 645 Views
Brandon has said "no, there's more to come". during the TSG tour - 05/05/2010 12:43:50 PM 566 Views
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Re: Indeed - 06/05/2010 02:55:44 AM 456 Views

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