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Well... Etzel Send a noteboard - 04/05/2010 01:10:17 PM
That's simply no direct help by Alivia for Rand's death, because Gawyn has to take the medallion and Alivia - being dead - can't control that. It's just a random event.

Again, Min did not say that Alivia has to help Rand die directly. This is an interpretation of the viewing that the wording does not require.


The wording is that Alivia is going to help Rand die. It's really beyond me, how one can interpret that in a way that it would be fulfilled by Alivia being killed and thus Mat's medallion simply lying somewhere, if this is just one little step in the whole process which will lead to Rand's death in your opinion.

Obviously the Viewing makes only sense if Alivia will actively do something very specific and important in her lifetime to help Rand fulfilling the death and alive-riddle. I think one can't seriously deny that, especially not with your only counter-argument that this is just a red herring.

Yeah, but of course it only makes sense to connect it to the other Prophecies about Rand's "death" to figure out its true meaning. And if you look at everything, the fake death theory makes the most sense to explain the Aelfinn's riddle.

Connect it to what other prophecies? As I said, the only one that even hints at a faked death is the Logain dream, and that can be perfectly explained by the fact that 1. Logain is going to use Rand's death to achieve his glory, 2. Rand's death isn't permanent, and 3. Rand isn't going to come back in that body. The 'faked death' scenario took a huge blow when Perrin's beggar vision was fulfilled in TGS, because that was the only other thing going for it.


For example the various Prophecies, which show Rand and his girls at a funeral. The funeral can only be such important, if Rand uses it to convincingly fake his death. But also e.g. Rand wearing different masks could point to the faking of his death.

And as said, the Heroes are dead in TAR, not alive. Therefore Rand would just be dead and then alive, but not alive & dead at the same time, especially not in the Real World (contrary to my coma-scenario).

Your own quote shows this, since it's stated that Heroes are dead.

Also there is the following Q&A:
Q: Did Artur Hawkwing know he was a Hero of the Horn? (I asked this because of a quote in BWB when he was on his deathbed, saying the battle is not over yet).
RJ: No, not when he was alive.

This implies that Artur in TAR or at Falme wasn't alive. The dead are called by the Horn of Valere after all.

BTW, during the beggar episode in the end of TGS Rand experienced already, how it is to be "just another man" and wanted to use it for his advantage at first against the Seanchan. This could also further inspire him to fake his death to trick the Shadow.

There are too many assumptions, just because Gawyn announced that he will see Rand die (he might see it, but not kill him; and many other characters said that they will kill Rand), and because it's allegedly based on myths (of course, the fake death theory is based on myths as well).

You pretend as if the one quote I gave in the theory is the only one that supports Gawyn killing Rand. It's simply the only time that Gawyn said anything to Rand about it. When Gawyn first heard the rumor:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos

PROLOGUE - The First Message

His mother dead, and Elayne. Only a rumor, but rumors on everyone’s lips sometimes had a way of turning out true. He climbed half a dozen paces toward the Aes Sedai camp before he knew it. His hands hurt. He had to look to realize they were cramping from the grip he had on his sword hilt, and he had to force them to let go. Coiren and the others meant to take Rand al’Thor to Tar Valon, but if his mother was dead... Elayne. If they were dead, he would see whether the Dragon Reborn could live with a sword through his heart!

Nice foreshadowing there, though of course Gawyn won't live to see Rand live. You'd think he'd have calmed down since then, but he hasn't:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm

CHAPTER: 24 - A New Commitment

"She had another motive," Gawyn said stubbornly. He felt the heat of anger rise within him again. Around them, peddlers glanced at the two, but said nothing. They probably knew not to approach Bryne. "But now we'll never know it. Not now that she's dead. Curse al'Thor! The day can't come soon enough when I can run him through."

Bryne looked at Gawyn sharply. "Al'Thor saved Andor, son. Or as near to it as a man could."

"How could you say that?" Gawyn said, pulling his hand away. "How could you speak well of that monster? He killed my mother!"

"I don't know if I believe those rumors or not," Bryne said, rubbing his chin. "But if I do, lad, then perhaps he did Andor a favor. You don't know how bad it got, there at the end."

"I can't believe I'm hearing this," Gawyn said, lowering his hand to his sword. "I won't hear her name soiled like that, Bryne. I mean it."

Bryne looked him directly in the eyes. His gaze was so solid. Like eyes carved of granite. "I'll always speak truth, Gawyn. No matter who challenges me on it. It's hard to hear? Well, it was harder to live. No good comes of spreading complaints. But her son needs to know. In the end, Gawyn, your mother turned against Andor by embracing Gaebril. She needed to be removed. If al'Thor did that for us, then we have need to thank him."

Gawyn shook his head, rage and shock fighting one another. This was Gareth Bryne?

"These aren't the words of a spurned lover," Bryne said, face set, as if shoving aside emotions. He spoke softly as he and Gawyn walked, camp followers giving them a wide berth. "I can accept that a woman could lose affection for a man and bestow it on another. Yes, Morgase the woman I can forgive. But Morgase the Queen? She gave the kingdom to that snake. She sent her allies to be beaten and imprisoned. She wasn't right in her mind. Sometimes, when a soldier's arm festers, it needs to be cut free to save the man's life. I'm pleased at Elayne's success, and it is a wound to speak these words. But you have to bury that hatred of al'Thor. He wasn't the problem. Your mother was."

Gawyn kept his teeth clenched. Never, he thought. I will never forgive al'Thor. Not for this.

Like I said in the theory, he's the 'deaf man' referenced in the Lord of Chaos header.


People can change, and to me it makes more sense that Gawyn will change his view on Rand, if he learns that Morgase is alive, which will likely happen soon, now that she is with Perrin and already reunited with Galad.

Actually that Perrin will give Gawyn this information could also be the second time, when Perrin has to be with Rand, precisely to avoid any harm from Gawyn.

...we know that the Pattern can create certain direct effects, e.g. at Falme. If Rand would actually die (which I seriously doubt the Pattern would allow anyway), the Pattern would probably immediately try to counter it by bringing Rand's soul back to his body, without having someone rip him out of TAR.

Why doesn't the Pattern just solve every problem like that directly? I mean, the Pattern could just seal up the Dark One, and everything would be all dandy, right? What's the deal?


The Pattern can only spit out Heroes as a self correcting device, according to RJ.

The Pattern won't just allow Rand to die...the Pattern requires that Rand die. We've known that since the 'twice and twice' prophecy given in The Great Hunt, and it was confirmed by the Aelfinn, and again by Nicola, and again by Min.


It is required that he fakes his death, but not that he actually dies. Otherwise anyone could kill Rand and it's fulfilled.

Two very distinct bits of foreshadowing that indicate Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod:

TITLE - Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

"Sooner or later, I have to die, Min," he said patiently. He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. That still made no sense to him, but it left one cold hard fact. Just as the Prophecies of the Dragon seemed to say, he had to die. "Not soon, I hope. I plan not soon. I'm sorry, Min. I never should have let you bond me." But he had not been strong enough to refuse, any more than he had been strong enough to push her away. He was too weak for what had to be done. He needed to drink in winter, till he made winter's heart seem Sunday noon.

"If you hadn't, we'd have tied you up and done it anyway." Best not to ask how that would have differed from what Alanna had done, he decided. Certainly, she saw a difference. Climbing onto the bed on her knees, she cupped his face in her hands, "You listen to me, Rand al'Thor. I won't let you die. And if you manage it just to spite me, I'll follow you and bring you back." Suddenly a thick vein of amusement rippled through the seriousness he felt in his head. Her voice took on a mock sternness: "And then I'll bring you back here to live. I'll make you grow your hair below your waist and wear hair clips with moonstones."

He smiled at her. She could still make him smile. "I never heard of a fate worse than death, but I think that fits."

And again:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm

CHAPTER: 33 - A Conversation with the Dragon

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

She opened her mouth to object again, but he gave her a sharp glance. "That is how it must be, Nynaeve."

She closed her mouth.

"You did well tonight," Rand said. "You have saved us all a lot of trouble."

"I did it because I want you to trust me," Nynaeve said, then immediately cursed herself. Why had she said that? Was she really so tired that she blabbed the first thing that came to her mind?

Rand just nodded. "I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."


These foreshadowings would also be fulfilled in a way, if Rand figures out that he has to be put himself into a temporary coma to fake his death and later be revived by his girls.

And this is aside from all the well-known foreshadowing for Nynaeve healing death, and the fact that Nynaeve was the only channeler that happened to be there when Moghedien did it to Birgitte, and the fact that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to remember it, which we were also just reminded about in The Gathering Storm.


That would only matter, if Rand would actually be ripped out of TAR, but that is in itself an unlikely assumption, as I pointed out above.

In my view, it's an ironic foreshadowing that Rand considers in KoD that "he was not sure Alivia knew any weaves but those for weapons", because she will actually be the person to provide a stasis weave to put Rand into a dead-and-alive-state.
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