How do you judge people, if not by their actions?
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 02/05/2010 06:29:16 AM
Everything anybody does has a reason, and by your reckoning that apparently means there is no one good in existence, making the entire point of the comparative meaningless.
By Cannoli's argument, you could take anyone and suggest that they weren't good. Lews Therin and Demandred probably did the same things every day, and just because Demandred became one of the Forsaken, it was for ego and pride, and Lews Therin was a true altruist. It's a nonsensical argument.
It is entirely possible that they were reversed, and that Demandred was a benevolent and altruistic individual while Lew Therin was ambitious and power-hungry, but his subsequent behavior and self-serving agenda argue the opposite, as do Lews Therin's actions suggest otherwise about HIS character. Certainly he would have been welcomed with open arms had he attempted to leave the sinking ship that was the cause of the Light, and yet he forewent those opportunities. The Forsaken recall that "there had been attempts to turn" him to the Shadow so it is not as if he was insensible of his opportunity, etiher. While it does not prove anything about their earlier character, their subsequent behavior of which we do have knowledge argues for the worse interpretation for Demandred and the better of Lews Therin. Being a politician is not by any stretch of the imagination an inherently good thing. We only think well of LTT because of his demonstrated heroism. Given the self-serving aspects of a political profession and the obvious rewards and gratifications, and Demandred's evident desire for ever more of those rewards and gratifications, the possibility that he was a good and virtuous individual cannot be taken seriously. There is no evidence of any such character in his history, and offering the existence his political career as evidence for any goodness on his part is a ludicrous ploy leaving you no room to talk about nonsensical arguments.
Except that I'm not using his history as a politician as evidence of goodness. I'm using the evidence that he was undoubtedly the second greatest man to come out of a Utopia. If LTT had never been born, Demandred would have been the leader against the Shadow, and we'd never have heard of the evil of Demandred. It's not useless hypothesizing - it's a flaw which was exploited in Barid Bel Medar and caused him to turn to the Shadow.
He's not unique. There is no evidence that Mesaana was anything but good at her job and aspiring as a citizen of the 2nd Age. Same with Asmodean, Sammael and Be'lal.
I agree with you that most of the Forsaken were evil long before the War of the Shadow, but you stated that all of the Forsaken had no evidence of any good nature prior to the War of Power. It's an unfair statement considering we've had no insight into their lives, so there is no proof. Therefore the fact that some of them seemed to be normal aspiring citizens who weren't murderers or criminals blows that theory out of the water.
You make it sound obvious but it isn't. It's like saying that the people of the 3rd Age who are part of the Light are all good e.g. Nynaeve, Mat etc... and you focus on their good points. And then you say that the darkfriends are all evil and focus on their bad points. As if Nynaeve has never shown moral ambiguity, and Ingtar or Sheriam were psychotic killers their whole lives and never did any good.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately...
29/04/2010 07:09:22 AM
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Sammael?
29/04/2010 08:07:24 AM
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Sincerest apologies, the post should've been a reply...
29/04/2010 06:52:23 PM
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Don't sweat it. It's not like we're overflowing with threads and need to cut down on the clutter. *NM*
30/04/2010 01:52:37 AM
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Posting a reply at the bottom of a long thread is a good way for your points to be overlooked. *NM*
30/04/2010 01:51:55 AM
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Nope, they deserve their bad rap for being Typical Villains of the Week including Gimmicks
29/04/2010 02:48:47 PM
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Re: Nope, they deserve their bad rap for being Typical Villains of the Week including Gimmicks
29/04/2010 05:04:56 PM
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Re: Nope, they deserve their bad rap for being Typical Villains of the Week including Gimmicks
29/04/2010 06:05:40 PM
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Sorry - vanished-portal-deaths are like "Dead! His car fell in the river; we never found the body.." *NM*
29/04/2010 07:28:40 PM
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I was hoping the melting gateway meant they were burned out of existence at first. *NM*
29/04/2010 08:10:16 PM
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Jordan didn't care in a 4 book series!
29/04/2010 07:24:24 PM
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Name one bit of good nature to any of the AoL lives of the Forsaken.
30/04/2010 01:49:53 AM
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What about Demandred?
30/04/2010 05:12:55 AM
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D'oh! How come I didn't immediately think of a politician? Seriously?
30/04/2010 12:45:35 PM
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What is your argument?
30/04/2010 06:12:24 PM
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Indeed
01/05/2010 09:35:06 AM
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Except LTT DID do good. You know, saving the world from the Dark One and all. He was good. QED
01/05/2010 05:06:31 PM
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and Demandred fought the Shadow for half the war... what's the point?
01/05/2010 09:20:00 PM
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You can do good without being good. It's mostly the system's fault (credit? )
01/05/2010 11:30:16 PM
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How do you judge people, if not by their actions?
02/05/2010 06:29:16 AM
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The WoT does NOT feature a "small set of characters"
03/05/2010 12:06:56 AM
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I kinda thought most of those points were in what I already wrote
03/05/2010 02:53:04 AM
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Re: Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately...
30/04/2010 02:44:06 AM
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I agree with a few of your points
30/04/2010 07:24:59 AM
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