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Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately... newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 29/04/2010 07:09:22 AM
The Forsaken are getting a bad rap lately. Seems like there's a lot of speculation on the board as to whether they're incompetent or not. I definitely feel that there's a lack of preparation and foresight on the part of our baddies (and our heroes!), but I would like to highlight a few things.

First, the Forsaken have been under a general ban to leave Rand alive for most of the series. I think my fellow readers are too accustomed to seeing the FS break that prohibition. Still, that general order means that hunting down Rand simply and decisively would be difficult - especially if they want to avoid getting killed by the DO/Ishy. Those Forsaken willing to go up against Rand (or kill him stealthily) would have to operate under very odd tactics. They certainly couldn't do what I would: tell DF to wait in every city and down, use Fades to relay a Rand sighting, then raze the surrounding area with fire.

Second, the deaths:
Rahvin and Belal were wiped out by balefire. The latter was offed by a "so-called Aes Sedai" pulling out a 3,000 y.o. move - he should've been safe in assuming that Moiraine neither knew it nor had the strength to use it. Belal And Rahvin must not have seen it in a long time! Balefire had been phased out of the War of the Shadow at least a year before the end.
It's hard to find fault in those two deaths, especially considering that Rahvin was slick enough to save his own life after being immolated.
The original Balthamel and Aginor were squaring off against a group of push-overs - two untrained women, a "so-called Aes Sedai" that barely slowed them, and one male channeler who ran rather than trying to fight. I doubt anyone in the AoL had seen a Green Man execute a fungus attack. Hell, I doubt there had ever been an opportunity for one to use it.
Now, Aginor did seem to die a bit easily from Rand's eventual attack. That might seem odd, but those were far simpler times, weren't they? Aginor was just getting his youth back and tasting clean Saidin! Aginor's second death is both slightly comical and a little more sensible. At least death 2 found him safely crouching on a hill, readying his attack. On the field of battle, you surely can't see everyone who might be gunning for you.
When Lanfear expired (let's count it as death), she was safe in a protective bubble. She had her main enemy on his knees, ready to die - the other four possible threats (Lan, Moiraine, Egwene Avhienda) were incapacitated. Lanfear likely had a bit of Moghedien's weakness - she was unprepared for Moiraine's physical confrontation.
If I were Moghedien, I would never have suspected that Nynaeve would get smart and figure out my identity; I would also join the side of good, but that's just me.
Ishamael died three times because of Rand. In the first two instances, Ishy was fighting under an obvious constraint - he was more focused on testing and turning Rand than in killing him. This handicap and Rand's surprise moves (nearly burning himself out via the Eye of the World, Sheathing the Sword) led to his first two defeats.
The third time out, in the Stone, Ishy tried hard to kill Rand. I think every reader was amazed at the things thrown at Rand - soul-snatching, heat, gravity, fluctuating reality, a TaR void. Rand's survival was made possible purely through the use of Callandor. It was never used in the AoL (presumably), so the way that it turned the fight couldn't be predicted easily. I myself wouldn't have guessed that Rand would be able to effectively use it through sheer intuition.
Semirhage could never have guessed that Rand would have access to the TP, much less knowledge of the weaves he used.
As to Graendal, I ain't touchin that with a 20 ft pole.

Next, whose deaths suggested incompetence?
Only Sammael's, really. He teleported to a haunted citadel, a lethal one that's unfriendly to the Shadow. He put himself in a position to get sniped by Rand or eaten by Mashadar. That's somewhat incompetent for a man who was supposedly so good at playing defense. He was just standing out in the open, waiting...

Finally, whose general actions & predicaments showed incompetence? Asmodean is the first that comes to mind. The readers never get to see anything he did or planned before his unwise alliance with Lanfear. Nor does that pact speak well for him. She obviously wouldn't care much about him, would she? She's clearly ruthless and obsessed with LTT. Asmodean's dumbest move may have been staying near Rand so long and telling Mierin about Rhuidean. Had he simply told her he was leaving, he could've disguised himself or hid. He could've gotten the CK, attacked Rand, just fled...
Sticking with Lanfear - disappointingly, she seems the most incompetent. Her handling of Rand was out-and-out stupid from beginning to end. No one could've guessed that Rand would turn her down in the Portal World. Everything else, though, seems like kid-level villainy. She talks to him (a) like he's someone else, and (b) as if him joining her requires no actual convincing. Nor did she try to really confuse Rand about the nature of the conflict that he's in, so he might go evil that way. She also suggests to him that he'll abandon his duty though it's all he talks about. She talks about power, riches and "such souls as Trollocs have" (great selling point), though it's clear he wouldn't want any of those. As a scientist and hot badass, I really expected better...

It seems that most other displays of foolishness on the part of the Chosen come from the fact that they are fish out of water. If a fully-equiped group of elite modern soldiers suddenly found themselves in 1 A.D., would they fare better? It's tough to say.
They might feel too safe using a machine gun against sword-wielding soldiers in breastplates. They might be so ready to mow down all the primitives that they don't notice a ball of Greek Fire being hurled at them from behind and far away. They might also never suspect a meek serving girl who gifts them with a pair of poisoned hunting gloves. The weaker and dumber that your opponents seem, the easier it is to underestimate them.

As a group of horribly selfish and avaricious loners, most of the Chosen have used their resources tolerably well. Most tried to establish power and territories as they had in the past. Others played support roles or we are given little/no information about what they did (which bugs me sometimes).
Our baddies were accustomed to guns, breeding vats, communication, industry, flying machines, a huge channeling population... The Age of Legends' last survivors found their second set of enemies using sharp sticks and harsh language.

On waking up, they must've laughed thinking how easy it would be to win this time. The major channeling body in the world is thoroughly infiltrated. The nations are not banded together, and they're unaware of a Seanchan avalanche bearing down on them. Some people actually believe there are no Trollocs or Last Battle to come. The world rulers would either kill the Dragon or place him easily within the DO's reach. Hell, only the Forsaken knew how to Travel! Little did they realize how hard the the Lightside would fight. Or maybe they never guessed that the Pattern would help the Dragon quite a lot...

I can't blame the Chosen for the whupping they've received. Consider, fellow WoTManiacs, the moment that signaled Napolean's loss at Waterloo... He sends his elite troops to take a hill. He doesn't know that a British strategist has a hidden group of men placed at that hilltop, lying flat against it. When Napolean's premiere force climbs up, they're suddenly shot in the face and overrun by men they never saw. The remainder of the force turn tail, running from the sudden massacre. Then all of Napolean's troops start running.

Surprise and damage mean a whole lot in a battle, and it's hard to adjust to. The Dark has been good in using a third tool - psychological dominance - against their enemies. But the first two have favored the Lightside rather heavily - surprise and damage have left us with a lot of dead Forsaken.

Thoughts, opinions, fallacies?
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Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately... - 29/04/2010 07:09:22 AM 1549 Views
Sammael? - 29/04/2010 08:07:24 AM 793 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 01:44:35 PM 633 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 02:50:07 PM 638 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 04:27:54 PM 707 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 05:35:03 PM 706 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 06:47:05 PM 552 Views
Sincerest apologies, the post should've been a reply... - 29/04/2010 06:52:23 PM 617 Views
Don't sweat it. It's not like we're overflowing with threads and need to cut down on the clutter. *NM* - 30/04/2010 01:52:37 AM 298 Views
Thanks for the support! =) *NM* - 01/05/2010 03:01:25 AM 258 Views
Nope, they deserve their bad rap for being Typical Villains of the Week including Gimmicks - 29/04/2010 02:48:47 PM 609 Views
I agree - 29/04/2010 02:56:55 PM 573 Views
Jordan didn't care in a 4 book series! - 29/04/2010 07:24:24 PM 682 Views
Name one bit of good nature to any of the AoL lives of the Forsaken. - 30/04/2010 01:49:53 AM 583 Views
What about Demandred? - 30/04/2010 05:12:55 AM 691 Views
D'oh! How come I didn't immediately think of a politician? Seriously? - 30/04/2010 12:45:35 PM 727 Views
What is your argument? - 30/04/2010 06:12:24 PM 600 Views
Indeed - 01/05/2010 09:35:06 AM 633 Views
Except LTT DID do good. You know, saving the world from the Dark One and all. He was good. QED - 01/05/2010 05:06:31 PM 565 Views
and Demandred fought the Shadow for half the war... what's the point? - 01/05/2010 09:20:00 PM 632 Views
You can do good without being good. It's mostly the system's fault (credit? ) - 01/05/2010 11:30:16 PM 589 Views
How do you judge people, if not by their actions? - 02/05/2010 06:29:16 AM 627 Views
Hair, taste in clothes, and sense of humor. Faile wins! *NM* - 02/05/2010 06:38:08 AM 257 Views
Faile has bad hair *NM* - 03/05/2010 05:06:23 AM 266 Views
To some extent, there was no evil since they lived in Utopia, - 30/04/2010 07:08:32 AM 632 Views
The WoT does NOT feature a "small set of characters" - 03/05/2010 12:06:56 AM 535 Views
I kinda thought most of those points were in what I already wrote - 03/05/2010 02:53:04 AM 508 Views
Re: Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately... - 30/04/2010 02:44:06 AM 565 Views
I agree with a few of your points - 30/04/2010 07:24:59 AM 626 Views
Re: I agree with a few of your points - 01/05/2010 01:13:03 AM 913 Views
someone recently posted audio to the Budapest? signing RJ did - 01/05/2010 03:00:56 AM 555 Views

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