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I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. Legolas Send a noteboard - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM

View original postLook at from this point of view. When the first move came out all the little boys went home wanting to be either Hans or Luke and al the little girls went home wanting to be Leia. She was a strong confident women who has no problem speaking her mind and did not wait around waiting to be rescued by men but instead played her own critical role in the story. Hell she even stood up to the wookie tha had Finn cowering. No one would say the Leia took a back seat to Luke or Hans but the same cannot be said for Finn the sidekick. I guess in world of social justice girl power trumps racial equality but in the end little boys did not go home wanting to be Finn, they went home still wanting to be Luke.

Finn is plenty strong-willed and independent - if rebelling against the Storm Troopers when those are all he has ever known, while rescuing a rebel pilot along the way, isn't impressive enough for you, he then repeatedly proves his independent thinking and his self-confidence, especially with that bluff about knowing how to disable the shields on the big bad weapon. While kicking ass along the way when it comes down to fights - if he's using completely alien weapons, it may take a few tries but he learns nearly as fast as Rey. And it is after all only the first movie, so he has space left to grow.

There is nothing weak about Finn, unless you count that one detail of not being Rey. Which, you know, deal with it. If Rey had been a guy, you wouldn't have been here complaining that Finn was made weaker or reduced to a sidekick.

View original postAs for helping the plight of women and minorities that is just flawed logic. I fully support making a main character black, the original series did it to a degree. Of the major black characters in the series Finn, the former sanitation worker, is the weakest and I am not sure how making the black man the little buddy to the white girl helps minorities. I do object to the idea that new white characters can only be bad guys and need to look as much like Nazis as possible, make sure you zoom in on those blue eyes and blonde hair. I am sure that was no accident fro the Jewish Abrams.

I have no idea what you're talking about, considering that Kylo Ren has black hair and looks a lot more Jewish than Nazi, if I have to pick one of the two.

Nobody expects this sort of thing to magically cure racism or sexism, but that's not what it's about. It's about giving little kids of racial minorities, or little girls, the idea that they can be the hero of the story just as the little white boy can. As I said to Tom, there aren't many genres where the setting and plot will allow you to be truly colourblind and genderblind, so in cases like Star Wars that do allow it, the opportunity shouldn't be missed.

While we're at it, I don't want to give the idea that I'm scorning the earlier SW movies - Leia did have an important role, and there were coloured characters in important role before. But A New Hope came out in 1977 - in 2015, the time is ripe for a more active female lead.

View original postThe idea that portraying women as a match for men in close combat is not just misguided but it is down right stupid and has the exact opposite affect that is intended. In the real world when girls fight boys they get hurt and they can be hurt badly. Anything that makes it OK for a man to fight a women like she is a man does not help women and presenting women as equals to men in combat does exactly that.

I completely disagree. Men are stronger and taller than women and consequently have an edge in physical combat - on average. Girls getting hurt if they try to take on a guy depends entirely on the girl, and the guy. There's nothing wrong as such with a man fighting a woman like she is a man - the wrongness is in the man trying to hurt someone weaker just because he can, or to impose his will through violence. Which is just as wrong when he does it to a physically weak man, or when it's a woman doing it (don't know if you saw this, but inbetween all the fuss about the NFL's domestic violence policy, the WNBA had an ugly incident of its own).

But if this means that you're finally admitting that your problem is simply with the premise of the next big SW hero being a woman, perhaps we can stop the pretence that this is somehow about Finn, and conclude our whole debate really just boils down to me applauding a female heroine and you deploring it.

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Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2171 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 716 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1258 Views
I pretty much agree with most of that. - 18/12/2015 01:05:16 PM 1175 Views
Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 1030 Views
Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 03:04:37 PM 1117 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 04:35:49 PM 964 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 05:51:29 PM 1009 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 04:44:36 AM 1022 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 07:37:39 PM 1006 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 19/12/2015 05:30:13 PM 1039 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 20/12/2015 09:51:22 AM 1191 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1333 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 1105 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 1034 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 996 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 1061 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1100 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 977 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 978 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 1001 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 1088 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 986 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 1078 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 964 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 1080 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1137 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 944 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 1057 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1211 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 1078 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 1089 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 1045 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 1084 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 1041 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 1035 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1160 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 1076 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 1018 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1170 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 991 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1179 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 696 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 1078 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 972 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 670 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 775 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1124 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 1036 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 727 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 1039 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 1004 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 1040 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 722 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 963 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 894 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 953 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 948 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 1038 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1352 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 996 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 950 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 992 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 813 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 1035 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 915 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 1015 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 941 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 912 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1120 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1192 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 1031 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 1018 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 1014 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 956 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 990 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 992 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 1635 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 946 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 1035 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 998 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 875 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 1001 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 974 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 969 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 982 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 985 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 961 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 1005 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 946 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 1022 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 919 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 980 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 1091 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 896 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 741 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 948 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 930 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 1015 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 1010 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 931 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1351 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 1084 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 1038 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 1072 Views

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