...you do understand that my reply was not a personal attack on your opinion, right?
Aemon Send a noteboard - 23/07/2012 08:33:30 PM
You're coming off as more than a little abrasive/angry, for some reason. Anyway, disregarding whatever's up with that for the time being, I'll try to respond to your points.
I didn't "miss the point" (or at least not the one you're trying to explain to me), I just didn't care for its implementation. Batman has been a symbol of the people for all three movies. I don't object to that or downplay its importance. However, in the first two movies, batman was able to be a symbol while being awesome at the same time. He had a steady supply of cool new gadgets and weaponry, he had some sort of pseudo-mystical martial arts training, he regularly took down baddies in creative, fun-to-watch ways, and even threw in a few good one-liners from time to time.
All I'm saying is that Batman the symbol is not incompatible with Batman the superhero, and I'm disappointed that they humanized him to such a degree in the third movie.
Yes, he did come back to be relevant one last time. He wasn't motivated by pride or arrogance and he wasn't looking for recognition, but he thought that his city needed Batman again, despite Alfred (who generally portrays the voice of reason) insisting that he could better serve Gotham by using his wealth and influence. In short, he tried to "be Batman" a final time, and, while he managed to capitalize on what he'd done in the past, he failed to live up to his former self in a big way.
Yes, he was. And that was vitally important. I just wish he'd been MORE than an inspiration. He built a reputation for himself in the previous movies by doing awesome, amazing stuff. In the third movie he does very little except use his reputation. This is great if your main character is a skilled orator trying to incite rebellion, but somewhat disappointing when your character is a futuristic superhuman action hero.
Of course I can see it. What does that have to do with anything?
You're right, and that's a fair criticism. I tried to stay high-level but didn't do a very good job. I still maintain, though, that however poorly I described them, Batman's exploits in this movie were significantly less impressive than those of the previous films. He had one new gadget which did almost nothing that a standard helicopter could not, he displayed no new abilities, he lost most of his fights and he was outsmarted at virtually every turn. As a legend/symbol, he got the job done. As the figure who earned that status, however, he was a pale shell of his former self.
Let's say that discarding the Bruce Wayne identity makes sense for all of the reasons you stated. So now:
1) Why do you fake your own death? As far as I could tell, every baddie who knew his secret identity was killed. There are much easier ways of "getting away from it all" than faking death.
2) Even if you go forward with your crazy plan, why do you let all of your closest friends, who have kept huge secrets for you for nearly a decade, think that you're dead? ESPECIALLY if you just plan to reveal yourself to them later on? This either makes no sense, or reveals an incredibly callous side of Bruce Wayne. "Eh, let them be grief stricken for a few days while I figure out how to be cleverly observed at that restaurant Alfred likes. Oh, and I should probably bring a date..."
3) So you've gone through all the trouble to fake your own death, keeping even your friends in the dark to make sure that your past can never again catch up to you. Why on earth do you now show up with no disguise whatsoever in a highly public place? I mean, in our world, even D-list celebrities have their every sighting posted all over the internet for the world to see. Does Bruce really not believe that he'll be immediately recognized and determined to be, you know, alive?
None of this made any sense to me.
Most comic book movies save the world, galaxy or even universe, so I'm not sure you can back up your last statement very well. As to the rest, yes, what he did was awesome. But it was awesome in the same way that what Abraham Lincoln did was awesome. Lincoln was inspirational, struck a blow for freedom, changed the world, brought a nation together, etc. And yet his life would have been exceptionally uninteresting to actually observe. Now, I'll admit that Batman was quite a bit more interesting to watch than an elderly president would have been. Compared to his previous adventures, though, he was nothing.
And THAT'S what I didn't like. Gotham's story was great and ended well, but I felt like Batman was pretty well neutered. Picture it this way: what if, in Spiderman 3, Peter Parker had never slung a single web, but instead used his science skills to perfect fusion power? He saved the world! He's one of the most important figures ever! HUGE win for all of mankind! Well yes, but at the cost of losing most of what makes him such an interesting character.
Batman is a comic book superhero. Treat him seriously, incorporate his abilities into a realistic setting as best you can, but don't turn him into just another concerned citizen. HE might think that's what he is, but we, the viewers, watch him because he is not.
You pretty much missed the point of the trilogy. He created a legend to inspire people, either to fear the consequences of their actions or to stand up. The Dark Knight is what rises, not Bruce Wayne/Batman. The man has stepped away from the role and another one is coming to take his place.
I didn't "miss the point" (or at least not the one you're trying to explain to me), I just didn't care for its implementation. Batman has been a symbol of the people for all three movies. I don't object to that or downplay its importance. However, in the first two movies, batman was able to be a symbol while being awesome at the same time. He had a steady supply of cool new gadgets and weaponry, he had some sort of pseudo-mystical martial arts training, he regularly took down baddies in creative, fun-to-watch ways, and even threw in a few good one-liners from time to time.
All I'm saying is that Batman the symbol is not incompatible with Batman the superhero, and I'm disappointed that they humanized him to such a degree in the third movie.
He didn't come back to be relevant one last time. That implies that he wants to be Batman or that he wants to be needed. His whole point was trying to get to the point where he was not needed. He wanted to believe that Gotham didn't need him anymore but events forced his hand.
Yes, he did come back to be relevant one last time. He wasn't motivated by pride or arrogance and he wasn't looking for recognition, but he thought that his city needed Batman again, despite Alfred (who generally portrays the voice of reason) insisting that he could better serve Gotham by using his wealth and influence. In short, he tried to "be Batman" a final time, and, while he managed to capitalize on what he'd done in the past, he failed to live up to his former self in a big way.
He was also the inspiration and spirit of the resistance. The whole contention between him and his enemies throughout the trilogy was whether or not Gotham and its citizens deserved to survive or whether there was any hope for this pit of iniquity and the people who either made it that bad, or allowed it to sink that low without saving it. The fact that there was a resistance at all is testament to Batman's victory.
Yes, he was. And that was vitally important. I just wish he'd been MORE than an inspiration. He built a reputation for himself in the previous movies by doing awesome, amazing stuff. In the third movie he does very little except use his reputation. This is great if your main character is a skilled orator trying to incite rebellion, but somewhat disappointing when your character is a futuristic superhuman action hero.
If you can't see the intended parallel between his imprisonment recovery & escape and the ordeal Gotham suffers, there is no point in even discussing this movie with you.
Of course I can see it. What does that have to do with anything?
You can take any action and reduce it to its basic components and strip it of all meaning. That does not mean it has no meaning. Why does anyone call George Washington "Father of his country"? All he did was tell a bunch of guys where to walk, wear a fancy outfit, make some speeches and do some paperwork. Not very much in the way of accomplishments, when you think about it.
You're right, and that's a fair criticism. I tried to stay high-level but didn't do a very good job. I still maintain, though, that however poorly I described them, Batman's exploits in this movie were significantly less impressive than those of the previous films. He had one new gadget which did almost nothing that a standard helicopter could not, he displayed no new abilities, he lost most of his fights and he was outsmarted at virtually every turn. As a legend/symbol, he got the job done. As the figure who earned that status, however, he was a pale shell of his former self.
The point was that he was done with it. By this point, Bruce Wayne was as much a disguise as Batman. Bruce Wayne's public persona was to prevent anyone from discovering Batman's identity, and since Batman was officially dead, he didn't need Bruce Wayne any more and could now go do what he wanted with his life. He won, he accomplished what he set out to do, so there was no more need to stay in Gotham with all that baggage.
Let's say that discarding the Bruce Wayne identity makes sense for all of the reasons you stated. So now:
1) Why do you fake your own death? As far as I could tell, every baddie who knew his secret identity was killed. There are much easier ways of "getting away from it all" than faking death.
2) Even if you go forward with your crazy plan, why do you let all of your closest friends, who have kept huge secrets for you for nearly a decade, think that you're dead? ESPECIALLY if you just plan to reveal yourself to them later on? This either makes no sense, or reveals an incredibly callous side of Bruce Wayne. "Eh, let them be grief stricken for a few days while I figure out how to be cleverly observed at that restaurant Alfred likes. Oh, and I should probably bring a date..."
3) So you've gone through all the trouble to fake your own death, keeping even your friends in the dark to make sure that your past can never again catch up to you. Why on earth do you now show up with no disguise whatsoever in a highly public place? I mean, in our world, even D-list celebrities have their every sighting posted all over the internet for the world to see. Does Bruce really not believe that he'll be immediately recognized and determined to be, you know, alive?
None of this made any sense to me.
If you can't see what he did that was so awesome, I pity you. Any fool can beat up a succession of increasingly tough thugs in costumes. That's not a story, that's a video game. Batman changed the paradigm for his city, and proved the value of hope and redemption. He overcame impossible obstacles repeatedly and made created a legend that changed, if not the world, then the corner of it he was trying to protect. Batman won the most decisive victory of any comic book movie ever.
Most comic book movies save the world, galaxy or even universe, so I'm not sure you can back up your last statement very well. As to the rest, yes, what he did was awesome. But it was awesome in the same way that what Abraham Lincoln did was awesome. Lincoln was inspirational, struck a blow for freedom, changed the world, brought a nation together, etc. And yet his life would have been exceptionally uninteresting to actually observe. Now, I'll admit that Batman was quite a bit more interesting to watch than an elderly president would have been. Compared to his previous adventures, though, he was nothing.
And THAT'S what I didn't like. Gotham's story was great and ended well, but I felt like Batman was pretty well neutered. Picture it this way: what if, in Spiderman 3, Peter Parker had never slung a single web, but instead used his science skills to perfect fusion power? He saved the world! He's one of the most important figures ever! HUGE win for all of mankind! Well yes, but at the cost of losing most of what makes him such an interesting character.
Batman is a comic book superhero. Treat him seriously, incorporate his abilities into a realistic setting as best you can, but don't turn him into just another concerned citizen. HE might think that's what he is, but we, the viewers, watch him because he is not.
Dark Knight Rises anyone?
21/07/2012 12:22:24 AM
- 2580 Views
I really liked it.
21/07/2012 12:42:10 AM
- 861 Views
Any three month olds in the theater???
21/07/2012 06:29:39 AM
- 857 Views
??? *NM*
22/07/2012 01:31:31 AM
- 520 Views
There was a 3mo old and a 6yr old baby/kid at the midnight screening in Aurora... *NM*
22/07/2012 07:42:30 PM
- 504 Views
I was mocking the idiots that took their little kids to the movie. *NM*
24/07/2012 02:21:02 AM
- 487 Views
bet you also really enjoyed (Spoiler Warning)
21/07/2012 05:46:58 PM
- 1037 Views
They used weapons and violence
21/07/2012 09:20:17 PM
- 861 Views
Eh. The "political message" was a sham, a smokescreen. There wasn't one.
01/08/2012 02:46:50 PM
- 1103 Views
Cillian Murphy is Irish
21/07/2012 11:27:38 PM
- 920 Views
I was just thinking of 28 Days Later and assuming his accent was legit.
22/07/2012 01:31:03 AM
- 911 Views
It had a few issues, but overall I thought it was great. *spoilers*
22/07/2012 06:00:57 PM
- 881 Views
I too thought it was great. - a SPOILERish reply ...
23/07/2012 07:37:26 AM
- 781 Views
ESPECIALLY since the theme of the first two movies is "Gotham PD is corrupt"
01/08/2012 02:51:03 PM
- 734 Views
They were charging in to ARREST the thugs, not to wipe them out. That's the point of cops
03/08/2012 03:38:13 PM
- 984 Views
I liked every part of that movie that didn't involve Batman. (spoilers)
23/07/2012 04:32:32 PM
- 873 Views
I wonder what you could possibly have liked.
23/07/2012 05:49:12 PM
- 886 Views
...you do understand that my reply was not a personal attack on your opinion, right?
23/07/2012 08:33:30 PM
- 980 Views
Re: ...you do understand that my reply was not a personal attack on your opinion, right?
28/07/2012 04:03:51 PM
- 980 Views
Who was Catwoman's friend?
25/07/2012 01:06:23 PM
- 776 Views
I liked it, but have nitpicks
01/08/2012 03:33:11 PM
- 1040 Views
Re: I liked it, but have nitpicks
01/08/2012 06:46:14 PM
- 972 Views
Re: I liked it, but have nitpicks
02/08/2012 04:03:52 AM
- 712 Views
That probably went against his philosophy.
02/08/2012 04:23:28 AM
- 869 Views
Well, his goal is despair. It'd be even more effective if there was a guard at the top.
04/08/2012 03:12:45 AM
- 806 Views