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It's like a different interpretation. Why watch the Disney cartoons, when you know those stories? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 07/08/2011 03:47:54 AM
(I'm sorry if there's another thread on the topic. I tries a search, but there are a lot of posts about A Game of Thrones.)

When I say I didn't like it, it's not that there was anything in particular I hated about it, it just felt like a faithful adaptation of the book, but it didn't bring anything interesting to compensate for what is lost in the change in medium.

TITTIES!!!!!! But seriously, there are things you can look for in the TV show that you don't get in the books, if not in the same way as in LotR. I overheard a couple of much less literate coworkers discussing the show, with one of them enthusiastically encouraging the other to watch it. Knowing the two of them as I did, I wondered what the appeal could possibly be for the one, and why he would recommend it to the other until I remembered the gratuitous nudity. It just goes to show, in a backhanded sort of way, that there is more to this show than people acting out a novel.
Obviously one can't expect as much story depth in the series as there was in the books, that would just be a silly expectation. But one would expect the possibilities of visual and audio stimulation to make up for it. If you take The Lord of the Rings, for example, while I will rant endlessly about the movies compared to the books, I still loved and own them all. They're beautiful. The music is excellent. And Saruman always sounds like an absolute baller.

Obviously given the style of A Song of Ice and Fire I expected this series to have a pronounced brown and grey theme, but my disappointment went beyond that. It started with replacing the Others in the opening with those black-handed zombies (I forget what they're called). As I recall from A Game of Thrones there's really only two real fantastical scenes in the book. This one with the Others and the Dragons at the end. And I was really excited to see how they would look too, given their description in the books. The Others got me hooked up from the start. So that was underwhelming.
Given their grand total of two appearances in five books, that's a lot to hang your enjoyment of the series on.

There are going to be a lot of disappointments if you’re looking for an equivalent of the LotR films for aSoI&F. They simply don’t have the budget to match that stuff, and with Martin’s habit of filling in so much through character’s speech or memories (in a book, that’s not much different from “showing” it through the narrative, but on the screen, it’s the difference between a scene and a page of dialogue), a lot is going to be lost in the translation to the TV. Look at the battle scenes of the last couple of episodes. There were three major battles in the GoT book; the Green Fork, witnessed and experienced by Tyrion, the Whispering Wood, seen from a distance in the dark by Catelyn, who really only saw the aftermath, and the Battle of the Camps, where they lifted the siege of Riverrun, which was described by a messenger reporting to Tywin’s war council. The TV producers can claim that they only trimmed one of the three scenes, which is true, and that they were very faithful to the books for the other two, but what happened was the scene they trimmed was Tyrion’s battle. So we got their greatly truncated battle scene from Tyrion, and two dialogue descriptions of battles. Quite a comedown as far as action goes, but how much would have been gained by showing Tyrion staggering around ineptly on a horse with no idea of the larger picture, until he goes back to Tywin. Whether an event is described openly, related in dialogue or recalled in a flash-back in the books, it is much the same: we are still reading Martin’s descriptions filtered through the mind of the PoV character.

With that necessary shortcoming accounted for, I think the important thing is to enjoy some of the acting performances, particularly Peter Dinklage’s Tyrion, as well as the actors playing Arya, Littlefinger & Daenerys. There are other things that they can play up with more drama than you can get when it is a rather immature (Bran, Arya), dense (Jon, Sansa) or cynical (Tyrion, etc) PoV character who sees it in the book. One such instance was Jon’s abortive desertion from the Night’s Watch. As the one pouting over his impotence, and reluctantly being dragged back home by his friends, Jon was in no condition to appreciate the significance of the moment at the time, and thanks to the PoV trap, even readers who were relieved that his stupidity had been headed off were still stuck identifying with Jon and only registering his frustration. On the screen, the scene of these here-to-fore inept and bungling characters, who unlike Jon did NOT sign up for the nobility and honor of the calling, but came as criminals or orphans with no better prospects, reciting their oath to recall Jon to his duty is one of the more stirring moments in the season. The follow-up interview with Mormont as he sets Jon straight and then reveals his plans to go out on his fatal expedition is equally good and really gets you interested in the continuation of that story, which in the books seemed like something of a distraction from the intrigue and so forth.

Then comes, I think, the execution scene, the purpose of which I couldn't discern at all. In the series I mean. It just felt like it was there because it was in the books. I didn't catch any kind of narrative or emotional importance to it.
The impression I got from non-readers was that it established Ned’s bona fides and the grim character & ethos of the Starks. It’s the old rule of first impressions – even though a lot of what we subsequently see undermines the badass perspective of the Stark family, that first glimpse of Dad taking the kids out to watch him execute a guy for desertion (especially when we know he had good reasons to be freaked out and can empathize somewhat with his plight) reinforces that grittiness and that sort of thing sticks with the viewers.

I am not sure if we are better or worse off for having read the books, because all we see are the shortcomings. As one example, the only one of the Stark bannermen who gets any characterization is the Greatjon. Roose Bolton never shows, Maege Mormont is only noticeable as a background character in the conference where Robb is proclaimed king, and Rickard Karstark’s agreement with Umber is the only dialogue or characterization he gets. Presumably the next season will flesh him out and relay to the readers his desire to kill Jaime for revenge on his sons and what not, but when we who have read the books watch, all we can think of is "how can they have NEVER even given the names of two characters who will play such an important role?" But when you get right down to it, it's not all that important, most of the thematic stuff is going to be lost (for example, no issue is made of the recurrent location of the crossroads inn. IIRC the series never acknowledges that Tyrion joins his father at the same place where he was arrested and that their bleak council of war is held in that same location - that says something in the books about the futility of these petty squabbles between the houses and the waste and tragedy of war, and is lost on the show. But those events are in three different episodes, so what would be the point?

Then we get to the direwolves and that scene felt drained of energy too. Couldn't feel the excitement of the boys or the fear and disgust of the adults.

I make it sound worse than it was, but the point is that at this point I stopped watching because I simply couldn't see what I could get from watching the series that I couldn't get better from rereading the books.
I think you have to sit back and look at it as something entirely new, not just the same story in a different medium. Pay more attention to the dialogue. I have a cousin who has never read the books but raves about the show, and when describing the show to another family member, he said, somewhat to my surprise, that even though much of the story happens in the dialogue or and most of the history is related verbally, that dialogue is so well written and almost poetic, that it's worth it just to hear what they say and how. I have seen online discussions and reviews that place the word-play of GoT up there with The Wire and Deadwood, two HBO series famous for their extraordinary dialogue.

Another thing to do is look at each episode as a discrete work as well, and try to see how character arcs and recurring concepts show up. For instance, the episode with Tyrion's trial, we see many instances of powerful characters, or rather people who think they are more in charge than they actually are, getting bit by the rules being turned against them. Viserys thought he was getting his crown, and we see how that turned out. Lysa expected to condemn and execute Tyrion, but he flipped it around with the help of a sell-sword who was willing to fight dirty. Robb & Bran think they're going for a safe ride, and get ambushed by wildlings, who in turn think they have the drop on the Stark boys only to get roughly disabused by Theon & the wolves. Ned also discovers that Cersei has turned the laws of succession on their head, with her cuckoo's eggs that every thinks are Robert's children. It's stuff like that. The title of the episode was "A Golden Crown" which referenced Viserys' fate. And just as the crown he got was not the crown he expected, so it goes for many people in the episode. Lysa got a confession from Tyrion and he stood trial, but neither was what she expected. Then there is also the "golden" hair crowning the heads of Cersei's children which is the clue that finally tips off Ned. None of these micro-themes are found in books because the books themselves are the whole works, but in the episodes, it is interesting to see how they break down the novel into miniature self-contained stories.

I don't know, maybe it's because most people didn't know the story? It's A Song of Ice and Fire's plot, so obviously it would be interesting for people who didn't already know it, which is kind of why I'm asking here, for the opinions of people who had read the books before watching.
Look at it not as another version of the book-story, but rather as a TV show, where it blows most TV shows out of the water on characterization and dialogue and themes.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Am I the only one who didn't really like A Game of Thrones? - 06/08/2011 10:52:41 PM 1626 Views
I was very happy with the first season. - 06/08/2011 11:10:19 PM 744 Views
I very much enjoyed the first season.. - 07/08/2011 12:45:35 AM 810 Views
Re: I very much enjoyed the first season.. *NM* - 07/08/2011 12:46:01 AM 361 Views
Not exactly. - 07/08/2011 01:35:42 AM 736 Views
That's ridiculous - 07/08/2011 04:21:00 AM 766 Views
Not at all. - 07/08/2011 05:17:40 AM 779 Views
That's fucking stupid - 07/08/2011 06:17:39 AM 782 Views
Your opinion has been noted. - 07/08/2011 07:52:37 AM 706 Views
So, you are saying - 07/08/2011 11:52:33 PM 648 Views
That is an inane argument. - 08/08/2011 12:32:30 AM 643 Views
Re: That is an inane argument. - 08/08/2011 12:47:58 AM 668 Views
sounds like you should give up TV all together then - 07/08/2011 05:16:54 PM 692 Views
posted in wrong place...ugh *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:29:31 AM 357 Views
What noob! Wrong place! Again! *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:30:07 AM 377 Views
ahahaha *NM* - 08/08/2011 01:07:57 PM 342 Views
In all fairness - 07/08/2011 05:29:04 PM 627 Views
That's good to hear. - 07/08/2011 07:43:07 PM 636 Views
yes *NM* - 07/08/2011 03:10:31 AM 395 Views
It's like a different interpretation. Why watch the Disney cartoons, when you know those stories? - 07/08/2011 03:47:54 AM 806 Views
Re: - 07/08/2011 05:44:46 AM 806 Views
Yes, you are very silly.....wonderful series! *NM* - 07/08/2011 04:28:38 AM 403 Views
well there was some great boobs so I wouldn't say nothing was gained - 07/08/2011 05:10:28 AM 788 Views
Yeah, You should go back and give it another try. - 07/08/2011 07:32:08 AM 658 Views
Never called anyone insane for liking it. - 07/08/2011 07:50:07 AM 702 Views
Yay! - 07/08/2011 02:30:57 PM 772 Views
I loved it. Best series on tv in a long time. - 07/08/2011 09:08:01 AM 667 Views
Re: I loved it. Best series on tv in a long time. - 07/08/2011 05:36:06 PM 698 Views
doesn't invalidate his opinion only - 07/08/2011 11:56:26 PM 735 Views
Never watched it, since the books bore me. *NM* - 07/08/2011 08:56:09 PM 414 Views
the books bored me too - 08/08/2011 10:57:36 AM 725 Views
Not a huge fan of the books, - 08/08/2011 07:54:32 PM 615 Views
The first episode... - 09/08/2011 03:38:25 AM 727 Views
This is a better representation of the series - 09/08/2011 04:49:15 AM 984 Views
Yes, that was very nice. *NM* - 09/08/2011 05:59:04 AM 313 Views
If we're doing clips - 10/08/2011 04:34:31 AM 682 Views
I prefer this one - 10/08/2011 05:08:02 AM 786 Views
Yeah, that's a good one. - 10/08/2011 05:27:37 AM 663 Views
the one who REALLY nailed their role though is - 10/08/2011 06:13:14 AM 534 Views
Ok, I admit... - 10/08/2011 05:08:54 AM 815 Views
I love to hate Littlefinger. - 10/08/2011 05:29:31 AM 770 Views
I don't know why I dislike him. - 10/08/2011 08:22:20 AM 617 Views
Aidan Gillen so has to get rid of that moustache. - 10/08/2011 07:52:40 PM 593 Views
No way, the mustache is cool. *NM* - 10/08/2011 10:20:51 PM 333 Views
Really? It certainly reduces his beauty by rather a lot. - 11/08/2011 07:18:13 PM 731 Views
I like it. - 11/08/2011 10:58:11 PM 665 Views
Re: Really? It certainly reduces his beauty by rather a lot. - 12/08/2011 02:35:05 AM 647 Views
his height was one of my concernt when he was cast - 11/08/2011 02:19:15 AM 760 Views
Oh, Viserys. - 09/08/2011 08:40:20 PM 591 Views
I agree - 10/08/2011 03:25:00 AM 702 Views
I watched like 3 episodes and got bored with it. - 09/08/2011 08:19:00 PM 745 Views
I haven't read the books so I'm a bit wary of watching the TV show - 16/08/2011 02:59:18 PM 768 Views
I to my great disappointment felt the same. - 24/08/2011 04:37:13 AM 699 Views

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