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Re: The big thing GURPS did was let you apply your imagination to things requiring it. Isaac Send a noteboard - 10/12/2010 03:06:57 PM
Crossovers have always appealed to me even if I've seldom had the change to experience them (in large part because of the kind of gameworld specific rules GURPS goes out of its way to avoid) so one all encompassing rule set is very attractive. So many things even in a brief skim of AD&D 3.0 reminded me of GURPS that, to borrow your analogy, comparing the two is like comparing Win95 to '80s era UNIX: Sure, Windows does a lot better, because coming along a decade later allowed it to provide all kinds of functionality that simply wasn't possible in the '80s, not to mention benefiting from things the other system innovated.


Well, D&D has never really aimed for 'best system' exactly, the people who write the rules are obviously gamers, I'm sure they play other systems and get rules from other systems and try to incorporate them, same, lots of other systems borrow from D&D even though many deliberately try to do the opposite, wanting to establish a system they think better and/or delineate themselves from the established game.

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems like the simplest way to avoid that problem is to do away with classes altogether and just have people give their characters whatever "class" they want by building the appropriate skill set from the same pool of character points all characters get. You don't have to playtest it much for balance because it's inherently balanced by the point system. Having classes AND character points seems like the worst of both worlds (part of what was wrong with 2nd ed. proficiency slots being a function of class as well as intelligence; everyone but fighters got screwed in WPs, and they got screwed in NWPs). Not only that, but GMs can create their own class templates in lieu of or as an alternative to published ones.


I've played classless systems, obviously White Wolf is classless, and it works but not well with levels, its ironic then that Palladium, which has a fairly low power curve related to levels, goes the class route, but the fact of the matter is most novice and medium players are more comfortable with classes, and by the time your skill reaches the point that you don't tend to gain from using them your comfortable with or without them. As a GM, being able to know peoples level and class makes auditing their characters, guessing challenge levels, etc much easier, and having the same system most of the time helps too. If I start off a newer player in a 8th level fighter I know what his pluses on rolls are going to be, with D&D, with very little thought, so I know if he made a mistake. You take something like Palladium, where each skill proceeds at its own rate of its own base percentage and you gain to it based on the level you took it at and even with the pretty common skills it can be an epic pain to help them out, alternatively with 3rd Ed I can just scan down the standard character sheet and pretty much know in a few seconds if there are any errors. And I tend to emphasize skill usage more than battle because you can effectively RP a skill based challenge far quicker than a battle, I've noticed many players will be just as happy most times having negotiated a discount on a magic sword then actually using it in battle.

But that's precisely the point: Because the playtesters have already researched and balanced all that stuff for you you don't HAVE to spend time on it to incorporate it into your games. You don't have to incorporate most of it, in fact, but if you choose to do so you can, and it doesn't become a hideous time sink. That liberates the GM to concentrate on creation instead of mechanics without sacrificing any realism or detail. If you need or want a rule to cover a given scenario it probably already exists in a more realistic and balanced form than you could produce without a lot of work. Your analogy applies again: Once you know any system all the mechanics fade into the background when not in active use; the difference is that GURPS has a lot MORE of that detail if you DO use it, and you're not obligated to use it even if the need arises. Again, that's why there's Advanced Combat for people who want to diagram every position, orientation and action, plus Basic Combat for people who just want to roll a few dice and move on again (plus an optional "flesh wound" rule for people who want the kind of combat intensive campaigns that spell quick death with the average 10 point HT in the standard rules).


I don't exactly disagree but learning a system rules, to me, is really an exercise in familiarization, and I master it by explaining it to players, I'll still have rules I don't know and someone will bring one up from time to time, we'll use it, otherwise I just go with my gut. I'm a strong believer that unless everyone at the table is a vet, the GM should be the person who knows the rules best, unless it's the new or stand in GM so the regular can play something. But that said, once you've mastered the original singular rulebook you should never need to do anything other than skim the newest book someone bought and wants to play a class from. It's great someone took the time to work out a given thing but realistically I don't need to spend time reading some complex set of rules covering aimed shots or something when I can just say, on the spot okay, use an action to aim, and you can add a d6 to your attack roll', if people start doing it a lot you can adjust it then, but in a whole game session with people repeatedly doing it because it's a bit over-powered, you still won't gain as much time back as from reading the 'special rules' and you can just adjust it to a d4 instead, or maybe a d8 if people aren't using it much and you want them too, give a damn about realism, I used to, but these days, waste of time, detracts from game flow. Off the cuff guesstimates are better for anything you don't use multiple times a session and for multiple sessions.


Flavor, yes; rules, not necessarily. I can't speak to how well 4th ed. GURPS does it; to be honest, from what I've seen of Character Books, Gamemaster Guides and the like it seems like they've gone more in the direction of TSRs "let's see how many accessories we can sell" model. Comparing GURPS 3rd ed. to its contemporaries usually left the latter rather wanting, IMHO. That's before taking into account crossovers, which most other systems can't even begin to handle without a LOT of GM work that shouldn't be necessary.


Not necessarily for rules, sure, but flavor's more important, and they'll have rules appropriate to that flavor. Someone playing star wars needs rules for lightsaber duels, pretty useless in another system, but there you can count on them being designed to make such duels run well, and that's more important because its what players doing star wars are going to want. If players come up to you and ask "can you run a Star Wars campaign?" that specific player might not want to play a Jedi or Sith, but probably does, and if you put together a group to play, they're going to want to do that. Its easier to use a set of books where the rules have been adapted and play tested with that in mind that to adapt another system to it, because 'accuracy' isn't the goal, playability is.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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The big thing GURPS did was let you apply your imagination to things requiring it. - 10/12/2010 01:23:39 PM 835 Views
Re: The big thing GURPS did was let you apply your imagination to things requiring it. - 10/12/2010 03:06:57 PM 608 Views
I generally homebrew off D&D :p. - 03/12/2010 06:19:48 AM 595 Views
It is one of the better ones, surely. - 10/12/2010 02:08:29 PM 699 Views
Re: It is one of the better ones, surely. - 10/12/2010 06:38:51 PM 570 Views

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