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The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. Legolas Send a noteboard - 14/12/2023 02:33:21 PM

View original postAre there people who believe this is meaningful, non-cynically? In the event Hamas or Fatah team up with whoever is necessary to actually defeat and conquer the Jewish state, are their people who believe the result (state of the Jews aside) will be describable as 'free'? I mean, free of Jews, maybe, but freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, freedom of religion? What sort of freedom in a best-case scenario - similar to Iran? Saudi Arabia? Jordan?

View original postI know independent doesn't rhyme with with 'sea' in English, but would even that be a good substitute? I don't think they're chanting about a independent Palestinian state that co-exists alongside Israel.

There are no simple answers here - genuine democracy with guaranteed political freedoms like you describe can't be imposed from above or from outside, it has to come from within to work, and even when it does work it can still backslide towards authoritarianism as we have seen, in different ways and to different extents, in countries like Tunisia, Turkey, Hungary and perhaps in the near future even the USA.

You mentioned Iran - obviously a textbook case of the revolution against one kind of oppression leading to a different, in many ways worse, kind of oppression. But you know, the 1979 revolution wouldn't have happened if the people at that time had been genuinely free, and the new Islamic Republic wouldn't have been so hostile to the West if the West hadn't tacitly or openly supported the suppression of the Iranian people. If we truly want non-Western countries to fully embrace democracy, full political freedoms and the like, there are no magic shortcuts to achieve that but we'll have to give them the space and time to follow their own paths and make their own mistakes along the way.

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The false narrative of the double standard damookster - 09/12/2023 02:33:25 PM 439 Views
ok *NM* Roland00 - 09/12/2023 07:27:01 PM 67 Views
Is this a good summary, NYT? Roland00 - 10/12/2023 01:20:47 AM 162 Views
It's as good as any. damookster - 10/12/2023 04:38:59 PM 133 Views
I noticed the OP was mostly opinion Roland00 - 10/12/2023 05:02:11 PM 136 Views
They dug their own graves Tom - 11/12/2023 12:24:16 AM 141 Views
There was an op-ed in the Washington Post claiming that antisemitism meets the Brandenburg standard. Ghavrel - 11/12/2023 01:01:39 AM 140 Views
Of course the pendulum will swing too far damookster - 11/12/2023 03:02:02 PM 132 Views
Re: They dug their own graves damookster - 11/12/2023 03:15:59 AM 134 Views
rhetorical question Mookie (it does not matter the answer) Roland00 - 11/12/2023 03:45:11 AM 136 Views
I have not damookster - 11/12/2023 02:49:55 PM 149 Views
Yeah that is why I asked Roland00 - 11/12/2023 04:24:40 PM 126 Views
There's a lot of double standards involved, aren't there? Legolas - 11/12/2023 07:02:06 PM 138 Views
We could go on and on with this damookster - 11/12/2023 08:58:28 PM 142 Views
that has NOT been my experience Roland00 - 11/12/2023 09:18:43 PM 131 Views
Yep, I know. Legolas - 12/12/2023 06:18:49 PM 142 Views
Re: Yep, I know. damookster - 12/12/2023 08:04:57 PM 127 Views
Re: Yep, I know. Legolas - 14/12/2023 01:33:53 PM 106 Views
Where do you get your stats ? AgentApple - 14/12/2023 07:09:02 AM 128 Views
the Hamas Ministry of Stats is likely an under-count Roland00 - 14/12/2023 12:57:46 PM 121 Views
Given the nature of Hamas, the numbers are likely an overcount The Shrike - 14/12/2023 01:16:00 PM 121 Views
whatever Roland00 - 14/12/2023 02:50:53 PM 115 Views
Given the choice between believing a Democracy and an Autocratic Terrorist Gov The Shrike - 14/12/2023 04:01:54 PM 115 Views
Chora I believe both are capable of lying Roland00 - 14/12/2023 04:16:14 PM 129 Views
To quote you, gurlfriend, "whatever". The Shrike - 14/12/2023 04:19:10 PM 114 Views
Obviously, anyone is capable of lying. damookster - 14/12/2023 04:30:29 PM 118 Views
You know that Roland is incapable of stating that the terrorist org Hamas is more likely to lie The Shrike - 14/12/2023 04:38:30 PM 113 Views
the names that Hamas was releasing in October Roland00 - 14/12/2023 04:49:06 PM 122 Views
What stats are you contesting, exactly? Legolas - 14/12/2023 02:12:18 PM 122 Views
Re: What stats are you contesting, exactly? AgentApple - 17/12/2023 02:34:34 PM 123 Views
Yeah, I'm still confused what you're trying to claim about the numbers Legolas - 17/12/2023 10:51:00 PM 116 Views
Out of curiosity, what do you think the best way forward is? Vodalus - 18/12/2023 03:52:34 AM 145 Views
I'm not sure your view of me on this is that accurate. Legolas - 20/12/2023 08:06:23 PM 117 Views
Because no one in the Arab world wants the "Palestinians" The Shrike - 14/12/2023 01:18:31 PM 125 Views
GDP per capita in Palestine is almost exactly equal to Egypt aerocontrols - 14/12/2023 05:36:55 PM 126 Views
There's always Antarctica Tom - 16/12/2023 03:22:01 AM 110 Views
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free aerocontrols - 13/12/2023 03:01:21 PM 129 Views
The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. Legolas - 14/12/2023 02:33:21 PM 116 Views
Re: The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. aerocontrols - 14/12/2023 03:13:36 PM 113 Views
Re: The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. Legolas - 14/12/2023 03:39:55 PM 113 Views
From my perspective, The Shrike - 14/12/2023 04:09:31 PM 121 Views
Well that's how it was at first... but I don't think you can go back there now. Legolas - 14/12/2023 07:57:52 PM 119 Views
It means free of Jews AgentApple - 17/12/2023 02:41:09 PM 113 Views
Re: From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free damookster - 14/12/2023 03:32:17 PM 119 Views
Is the point to imply that 'pre-1948' meant no Israeli state at all? Legolas - 14/12/2023 03:56:59 PM 118 Views
Exactly damookster - 14/12/2023 04:28:01 PM 133 Views
Those 3 Presidents are Bureaucratic Scum. The Shrike - 14/12/2023 01:21:56 PM 129 Views
So Claudine Gay, Harvard Pres resigns Roland00 - 02/01/2024 05:55:09 PM 110 Views
Re: So Claudine Gay, Harvard Pres resigns damookster - 03/01/2024 04:38:14 PM 111 Views
Hey that’s not fair! Roland00 - 03/01/2024 10:51:43 PM 107 Views
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