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You are not going to get a non emotional discussion about guns, it will never ever be rational Roland00 Send a noteboard - 26/05/2022 08:04:55 PM

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Your post is a great summary of why change in the United States is so difficult. Absent a constitutional amendment, which would have no support, or some really reaching judicial activism (like the SC finding AR-15 style rifles are unconstitutional) stricter laws are about as good as it gets. Even then, as you rightfully pointed out, they don't always work.

I think what bothers me more than anything is the selective outrage. Was this an abject, horrible tragedy? Absolutely. Should we be outraged that an unstable 18 year old, with a plethora of warning signs, was able to pull this off when he should have been institutionalized a long time ago? Yes, of course (I'll also point out that his own mother was so deluded that she left her mother, who her son, the perpetrator, shot in the face, in the hospital to fight alone for her life to search for the perpetrator because she believed he couldn't have done it). Should we be outraged that so many children, and their teachers, have been killed? 100%.

But where is the daily outrage at gun violence? In Chicago there were 3500 shooting incidents in 2021, almost 10 per day (chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/CompStat-Public-2021-Year-End.pdf).

Detroit in 2020 had "1,173 nonfatal shootings" in addition to hundreds of murders (https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2021/01/06/detroit-homicides-shootings-2020/6563259002/).

In LA in 2021, there were "1,400 people who survived shootings" (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-12-31/gun-violence-los-angles-15-year-high).

And those are just three cities. And, to be sure, some of those incidents were no doubt carried out by AR-15 style weapons. However, the overwhelming vast majority of gun violence in America comes from handguns. "In 2020, handguns were involved in 59% of the 13,620 U.S. gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters for which data is available, according to the FBI. Rifles – the category that includes guns sometimes referred to as “assault weapons” – were involved in 3% of firearm murders" (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/).

While so many innocent people being murdered at once gets coverage, and has all the talking heads freaking out about banning AR-15s and "assault weapons," those weapons are rarely involved in actual murders. Additionally, the rate of gun deaths in the US has actually declined from prior years, adjusting for changes in population: "Despite the increase in such fatalities, the rate of gun deaths – a statistic that accounts for the nation’s growing population – remains below the levels of earlier years" (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/).

Gun violence is certainly a problem, and proactive measures must be taken to limit it. I just find it ironic that certain political groups will rage about AR-15 style weapons when something like this happens, but are completely silent about daily killings of school kids when handguns are the weapons used, like the murder of Secoriea Turner (https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/killed-baby-year-girl-killed-atlanta-shooting-71622608 ), or a 16 year old kid murdered at his bus stop (https://www.wsbtv.com/video/local-video/16-year-old-gwinnett-county-student-killed-waiting-bus-stop/2043470d-6f38-40c5-a0bb-6fefa737a6c0/).

Handguns will never be banned under the Constitution, and laws that limit the ability to carry or use one likewise will probably not pass constitutional muster. That being the case, hyperbole about banning "assault weapons" or AR-15s should be ignored in favor of a frank discussion about how to limit handgun violence. Don't forget, for all the media's freakout over AR-15s (which NoBoDy EvEr NeEdS), it was a pistol attack at Virginia Tech that remains one of the deadliest school shootings in US history (32 murdered and 23 injured).

Banning guns (or regulating them into non-existence) will not happen in America. It's time to accept that reality and move towards a real solution that addresses the actual problem - and the actual problem is not the availability of AR-15s - its gangs, cartels, and criminals.



And like you said, here are the reasons why

But let me attack your figures to demonstrate your thesis even more so. We can never agree upon the facts in the first place.

For example why those 3 cities? Why not other cities?

Gun death per capita is higher in different cities, usually it is Saint Louis, Baltimore, Orleans Parish (aka New Orleans) as the top 3 cities of gun homicide, and the next 3 are usually Kansas City, Jefferson County, AL (Birmingham), and Shelby County, TN (Memphis).

I do not know why you predict those 3 places but it is always interesting everyone picks Chicago when it is almost never in the top 6. Currently Chicago is about 60% of the deaths of #6 of those top 6.

And that is the thing about data, how one parses it changes the result.

Thus it is not about Facts and Logic how people argue this emotionally charged issue in the real world, no we argue it over emotion.

———

And there are about 50 different ways we can reduce gun deaths on the margins. Stuff involving guns but also stuff like locating more hospitals that treat gun related injuries at the sites and cities of high amount of gun deaths.

But people do not want to talk about those 50 different ways for they are not in the power to implement them. That is the state legislature job, the us legislature job, the executive with its ability to prosecute, and the judiciary saying that way is illegal because I said so even if it’s ambiguous (there are some times it is clear cut illegal)

Too many moving parts, combined with we the speakers are too far away from levers of action to change those parts. In philosophy there is a way to describe this “phenomena” it is over-determined. For like a mob which may be a peaceful protest one moment when it gets set off it does not need 1 liberal easily identifiable cause, no lots of small micro causes ones we can barely observe can change the behavior of the phenomena. It is overdetermined, it feels chaotic.

And humans do not talk about logic with overdetermined phenomena. No we talk in emotion for things tied to control, aggression, ritual, repetition, etc is better at enforcing the boundaries of “inside-outside” with overdetermined phenomena. One can not use language to talk down a mass, or a gun shooter who we do not know what they look like.

Except there is all these rules and logic with overdetermined phenomena, one can study it! But one can not really debate it from first principles. In sum these conversations are never fruitful, never satisfying, never provide Catharsis with the releasing of tension. For we are talking about inside and outside, with things that penetrate the inside and that is inherently full of tension.

Fin.

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If no one else wants to open this can of worms, I guess I’ll have to do it - 26/05/2022 02:07:18 AM 970 Views
Unfortunately, there's not much to say. - 26/05/2022 04:26:10 PM 266 Views
You are not going to get a non emotional discussion about guns, it will never ever be rational - 26/05/2022 08:04:55 PM 228 Views
Re: You are not going to get a non emotional discussion about guns, it will never ever be rational - 26/05/2022 08:36:34 PM 250 Views
There are so many (partial)-solutions and no single one is going to solve it. - 26/05/2022 09:03:10 PM 223 Views
Unfortunately every time there is a mass shooting, gun sales spike. - 26/05/2022 09:26:09 PM 272 Views
Yes - 26/05/2022 09:55:14 PM 226 Views
Re: There are so many (partial)-solutions and no single one is going to solve it. - 26/05/2022 09:56:23 PM 237 Views
You understand two things can both be true, right? - 26/05/2022 10:19:56 PM 240 Views
In such a way - 26/05/2022 10:27:52 PM 229 Views
What Mookie said, Sense and Sensibility with Perspective - 26/05/2022 10:29:04 PM 214 Views
Oh yes, everyone is to blame, and hence no one - 26/05/2022 04:58:37 PM 251 Views
You obviously don't know anything about Canada's gun laws. - 26/05/2022 05:20:25 PM 268 Views
Remarkable - 27/05/2022 03:55:54 AM 235 Views
4% PAL acquisition is, in essence, a ban. - 27/05/2022 04:13:45 AM 227 Views
Well, that was a load of chickenshit - 27/05/2022 05:08:29 AM 232 Views
He said, running away. - 27/05/2022 11:34:19 AM 232 Views
He said, running away. - 27/05/2022 11:34:20 AM 215 Views
You are the RAFO poster child for inability to hold a rational discussion that includes disagreement - 26/05/2022 06:50:11 PM 252 Views
No, we're just disagreeing on what is rational, that is all... - 27/05/2022 03:42:23 AM 232 Views
You just don’t get it. - 27/05/2022 04:22:55 AM 267 Views
I think the same of you... - 27/05/2022 05:05:43 AM 240 Views
Article VI, Clause II - 27/05/2022 05:17:40 AM 235 Views
You're like a broken record. - 27/05/2022 05:23:52 AM 233 Views
Bro you literally come from a country that plays nuclear chicken with Pakistan. - 27/05/2022 11:40:07 AM 239 Views
And? - 27/05/2022 02:24:09 PM 236 Views
Lol Parody account confirmed. - 27/05/2022 04:04:56 PM 261 Views
Your repertoire of insults needs expansion. Keep trying. - 27/05/2022 04:27:35 PM 215 Views
He said, not coming up with any retort of his own. - 27/05/2022 09:58:30 PM 220 Views
whooops *NM* - 27/05/2022 09:58:03 PM 151 Views
Oh, fuck off. - 27/05/2022 06:21:45 PM 244 Views
Why is liking the Constitution a binary thing? - 27/05/2022 08:36:12 PM 220 Views
As you point out, it isn’t binary at all. - 27/05/2022 09:16:18 PM 253 Views
*NM* - 27/05/2022 09:55:28 PM 153 Views
It is not - 28/05/2022 07:19:32 AM 221 Views
Re: Oh, fuck off. - 28/05/2022 06:53:38 AM 233 Views
That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing. - 28/05/2022 06:56:05 PM 232 Views
When you shut your eyes, of course you can only see nothing - 28/05/2022 09:43:13 PM 225 Views
A dead child for freedom is the choice made every abortion. - 30/05/2022 08:16:18 PM 227 Views
Oh really? Then explain to me... - 31/05/2022 08:41:09 PM 252 Views
That baby isn't a baby, but that man is a woman - 01/06/2022 01:57:40 AM 226 Views
How would the world be different - 26/05/2022 07:03:22 PM 230 Views
Yes and if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle - 26/05/2022 07:14:08 PM 207 Views
I do not believe the original thread was made with curiosity or charity in mind. - 26/05/2022 07:24:20 PM 209 Views
Well isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black. - 26/05/2022 07:33:12 PM 212 Views
Well it is about respectability politics you see - 26/05/2022 07:38:59 PM 232 Views
You're one of those men. - 26/05/2022 08:27:53 PM 234 Views
Hypocrisy - 26/05/2022 08:42:17 PM 196 Views
I don't know whether English is your first language - 26/05/2022 10:00:04 PM 219 Views
Your attempt at mind reading is an abject failure. - 26/05/2022 07:58:07 PM 210 Views
You started with Foreclosure - 26/05/2022 08:08:36 PM 202 Views
Foreclosure, huh - 26/05/2022 08:48:50 PM 215 Views
My advice is listen to the podcast I linked Dragonsoul *NM* - 26/05/2022 09:05:13 PM 118 Views
One more thing - 26/05/2022 07:25:22 PM 229 Views
And I guess this post proves my point, lol. - 26/05/2022 07:34:48 PM 218 Views
Did I trigger you? - 26/05/2022 07:50:02 PM 193 Views
Never owned a gun, but I support gun rights. But... - 27/05/2022 02:51:26 AM 232 Views
I pretty much agree. - 27/05/2022 03:18:38 AM 236 Views
Yep, what Tyr said *NM* - 27/05/2022 03:27:33 AM 119 Views
The NY Yankees are now tweeting about guns. - 27/05/2022 03:26:45 AM 201 Views
Bah - 27/05/2022 04:25:25 AM 213 Views
Baseball twitter is bad - 27/05/2022 04:29:15 AM 198 Views
UPDATE on the shooter, Salvador Ramos - 27/05/2022 03:27:59 PM 242 Views
Can't be more of a disgrace than waiting an hour to go in and kill him. - 27/05/2022 04:05:58 PM 213 Views
Re: Can't be more of a disgrace than waiting an hour to go in and kill him. - 27/05/2022 04:15:22 PM 221 Views
I disagree. - 27/05/2022 10:02:23 PM 208 Views
It's funny how the left thinks only cops should have guns, but also ACAB. - 27/05/2022 06:15:23 PM 211 Views
They already lost their balls. - 27/05/2022 06:52:52 PM 223 Views
I am glad you protect your family - 27/05/2022 08:46:05 PM 199 Views
But see, this is why the death of community and religion is bad for America. - 27/05/2022 10:12:49 PM 212 Views
Charles Whitman took his rifles to the tower at UT Austin in 1966 and killed 14 random people. - 27/05/2022 10:21:42 PM 219 Views
And in May 1928, a maniac bombed a school in Michigan, killing 44. - 27/05/2022 11:46:34 PM 207 Views
I think the presence of visual imagery provides a mimetic response - 27/05/2022 11:52:32 PM 219 Views
Reasonable, but even then, that's merely another condemnation for the modern world. - 28/05/2022 12:06:30 AM 208 Views
I agree - 28/05/2022 12:56:10 AM 203 Views
I haven't said "bAn GuNs!1" - 27/05/2022 11:33:43 PM 225 Views
This is taken from the late Justice Scalia’s majority opinion in 2008’s DC vs. Heller - 27/05/2022 11:50:40 PM 226 Views
Please do not relitigate Heller with me - 27/05/2022 11:59:21 PM 225 Views
I wasn’t and will not. - 28/05/2022 01:01:59 AM 206 Views
We would scare them off that is what - 28/05/2022 01:43:11 AM 205 Views
You chose wisely - 28/05/2022 02:59:47 AM 219 Views
You did not. My apologies. - 28/05/2022 12:03:43 AM 212 Views
Why not 'harden' all schools and kindergartens with armed guards ? - 30/05/2022 03:40:06 PM 207 Views
You're completely right and I hate it. - 30/05/2022 08:24:29 PM 185 Views
Another podcast I enjoyed - 27/05/2022 08:26:56 PM 224 Views
This thread is reminiscint of the classic Wotmania debates from the aughts. - 29/05/2022 12:22:47 AM 239 Views
Nobody would like my idea, but personally, I think Korea's 2 year mandatory service would do us good - 30/05/2022 08:30:37 PM 196 Views
Yep there is zero chance that will happen. - 31/05/2022 10:32:06 PM 228 Views
Interesting - 31/05/2022 10:56:53 PM 222 Views
Re: Yep there is zero chance that will happen. - 01/06/2022 01:50:37 AM 209 Views
Believe it or not I am not always a Grump - 01/06/2022 03:38:16 AM 217 Views
Hot damn, Moolin Rouge was fantastic! *NM* - 01/06/2022 09:36:04 PM 212 Views
What about trans-men - 31/05/2022 10:07:21 PM 225 Views
an intriguing question - 31/05/2022 10:34:39 PM 227 Views
It's all tongue-in-cheek, and isn't that dumb? - 01/06/2022 02:01:04 AM 214 Views
Can the 21 year olds - 01/06/2022 03:44:08 AM 223 Views
Something tells me this won't factor in anyone's favor... - 01/06/2022 09:08:31 PM 235 Views
Wait, the *late* conservative Justice Alito? - 01/06/2022 03:56:19 PM 230 Views
my bad - 01/06/2022 05:09:22 PM 214 Views
Until the existing gun laws are actually enforced, I am not willing to entertain any new ones - 09/06/2022 09:55:41 PM 260 Views
Oh yeah, and I am sick of the hyperbolic gaslighting by both sides - 09/06/2022 10:02:25 PM 257 Views
Anarchy, the State, and UTOPIA ! - 10/06/2022 08:25:05 PM 219 Views
It gets darker and darker - 22/06/2022 02:10:08 AM 214 Views
It's so bad dude. So bad. Those poor souls... *NM* - 30/06/2022 05:04:56 PM 117 Views

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