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I've read Joe's post on FB and the study it referred to. Legolas Send a noteboard - 04/06/2020 07:29:12 PM

It concludes, as you say, that black people don't seem to be more likely to be shot to death by police than white ones, all else being equal - though of course it's very difficult to have enough data to actually compare on a 'all else being equal' basis. Even if the data is there, all sides involved in the encounter may have their own incentives to lie or misrepresent what actually happened, especially if there is no video evidence. And when you aggregate data, you inevitably have to use categories, such as 'armed' and 'unarmed' in the stats you quote - but what counts as armed?

Anyway, the same study also concludes that black people are significantly more likely, again ceteris paribus to the extent that can be determined, to be subjected to non-lethal (or non-shooting, anyway) force by the police. Which is probably more relevant for the George Floyd case, as well as Eric Garner and some others, since those involved supposedly non-lethal force that ended up being lethal after all.


View original postBlacks are disproportionately the victims of, and perpetrators of, violent crimes. Fact.

Certainly.
View original postBlacks killed by police comprise 0.1% of black homicide victims. Fact.

On this one you seem to use some funny mathematics though. Using your numbers above, 235 is about 3 percent of 7407.
View original postA police officer is 18.5x more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer. Fact.

On this one I'm going to need sources, as it's a far more complicated calculation. A list I found showed that in 2018, 52 police officers were shot to death and another 13 killed by other forms of 'assault'.
View original postCONCLUSION: The police aren't racist. We as a society are seeing race where the real cause is likely the poverty in black communities. There is an element of residual racism there, but anyone who has read any of Thomas Sowell's phenomenal work on trends in the black community can see that it's not all about racism, but rather, also about victim mentality. After all, you don't really fail until you blame someone else for your failure. It's about the breakdown of families and traditional values, it's about government programs that made black males feel useless, it's about a whole host of problems, and generally throwing money at the problem and hoping it goes away hasn't helped.

I agree that the police, taken as a whole, is certainly nowhere near as racist as some are currently making them out to be - some of the posts I'm seeing about how there aren't any good cops and the police should be abolished are pretty far out there. Still, it may be a step too far to conclude that the police and their policies are not racist at all.

In my view this is really a conflation of two separate issues. One, excessive use of force by the police in general, both in the sense of using any force at all where none was required, and in the sense of using more dangerous/lethal force than necessary. Which has a lot to do with the equipment they're given and some of the work they are being asked to do - basically the 'if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' problem. And then when it goes wrong, their superiors have to walk a fine line between punishing wrongdoing without demotivating their officers and weakening their hand in situations that do actually require lethal force.

And two, obviously, structural racism where being black is a disadvantage in all sorts of aspects of life. I think cops in general are no more racially prejudiced, maybe even less so, than the communities they serve - the difference is just that with them, racial prejudice may come to play in life or death situations. There is much more than just an 'element of residual racism' in American (and other western) societies. And just because a racial prejudice is based on real statistics showing higher crime rates, higher single parenthood rates, etc., among black Americans, doesn't stop it from being a racial prejudice: an assumption about people you don't know based on the single data point of the colour of their skin.

It's a very difficult matter, how to redress the crimes and injustices committed against black people in American history and move into a new reality where opportunities are truly equal, because even when there is full legal equality and explicit racism is frowned upon in society, there are still the knock-on effects of the past. Especially considering the economic evolutions of the past decades, the American dream being essentially dead, with strongly reduced social mobility, no real wage growth for the vast majority of Americans and very limited opportunities for poor people of any colour to become rich. There may be something to what you say about victim mentality, but certainly the suggestion that if black people just improved their mentality, all problems would get resolved without any need for other changes, is pretty absurd and offensive.

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Soooo, it turns out that George Floyd had drugs in his system - 04/06/2020 02:02:47 PM 1189 Views
Why let facts cloud your emotions when you want to steal shit? - 04/06/2020 03:45:24 PM 410 Views
Facts that don't fit a narrative are ignored. - 04/06/2020 05:12:44 PM 368 Views
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I worry about the desired end state sought by those promoting the narrative. - 05/06/2020 02:31:39 PM 349 Views
I'd be curious to see how other models work. Granted, I want them tested in someone else's town. *NM* - 05/06/2020 04:28:31 PM 208 Views
Bingo *NM* - 05/06/2020 05:31:26 PM 194 Views
Mookie how do you feel now after the May 30th tire incident, that the cops admitted they did today? - 08/06/2020 11:59:42 PM 336 Views
Whatever the rationale, defunding the police is a bad idea. Even Bernie agreed with that. *NM* - 12/06/2020 03:27:29 PM 184 Views
Are you disagreeing with the branding, or the actual ask? - 12/06/2020 04:32:36 PM 299 Views
Second - 12/06/2020 05:42:05 PM 307 Views
It depends on who's asking. - 12/06/2020 06:55:34 PM 302 Views
LA schools police will return grenade launchers but keep rifles, armored vehicles - 12/06/2020 07:11:36 PM 392 Views
Wow. What an absolutely insane sentence. *NM* - 12/06/2020 07:13:42 PM 191 Views
A six year old news article? Is it even still relevant? *NM* - 12/06/2020 08:39:44 PM 182 Views
It is extremely relevant - 12/06/2020 09:09:33 PM 294 Views
That's bizarre. You position changes based on who you're talking to? - 12/06/2020 07:12:47 PM 305 Views
yes because some have an agenda I can't accept. - 12/06/2020 08:36:15 PM 355 Views
So you are Anti-Anti- ... isn't that exhausting *NM* - 12/06/2020 08:39:35 PM 189 Views
No, I would be Uncle-Uncle *NM* - 12/06/2020 08:40:56 PM 198 Views
Sounds like one of those damned forsaken Time Loops. - 12/06/2020 09:12:27 PM 317 Views
Did you see this? It's brilliant - 08/06/2020 02:07:30 AM 422 Views
I did indeed. - 09/06/2020 08:50:04 AM 349 Views
I've read Joe's post on FB and the study it referred to. - 04/06/2020 07:29:12 PM 352 Views
Some of what you write is reasonable. - 04/06/2020 07:52:14 PM 382 Views
The drug war has caused a lot of collateral damage, yeah. - 04/06/2020 09:37:43 PM 318 Views
“Structural racism” is a bullshit term - 05/06/2020 04:00:09 AM 399 Views
Maybe the term isn't right - 05/06/2020 05:41:59 AM 358 Views
More bullshit! - 05/06/2020 11:14:49 PM 325 Views
and another point - 06/06/2020 03:37:45 AM 329 Views
A modest proposal *NM* - 05/06/2020 07:14:50 AM 193 Views
0.1% should be unarmed blacks *NM* - 05/06/2020 11:16:12 PM 209 Views
Your definition of racial prejudice is not the same as racism - 12/06/2020 02:49:04 PM 314 Views
And the hair splitting award goes to... - 12/06/2020 04:26:29 PM 295 Views
Also, COVID-19 - 04/06/2020 08:05:47 PM 341 Views
I hate to agree with Roland, but... - 05/06/2020 02:01:56 AM 357 Views
Exactly. There is no reason to have a knee on his neck for 8 minutes. *NM* - 05/06/2020 04:15:58 PM 176 Views
Who said otherwise? That actually shows the VIRTUES of the system. - 05/06/2020 06:46:10 PM 360 Views
Wait so that is your complaint? SERIOUSLY? - 05/06/2020 11:10:04 PM 312 Views
Re: Wait so that is your complaint? SERIOUSLY? - 17/06/2020 09:23:38 PM 457 Views
Daniel Shaver had a BAC 3 times the legal limit. - 05/06/2020 03:38:27 AM 323 Views
Never gonna happen - 05/06/2020 07:13:57 PM 340 Views
Re: Soooo, it turns out that George Floyd had drugs in his system - 05/06/2020 04:45:41 PM 341 Views
??? - 05/06/2020 05:23:34 PM 313 Views
My question is not why George Floyd said he can't breathe... - 05/06/2020 05:44:47 PM 361 Views
Oh, he asserted it - 05/06/2020 06:03:06 PM 337 Views
Ever watch Cops or Live PD or any police reality show? - 05/06/2020 05:35:38 PM 321 Views
Posting something a literal Karen made. - 06/06/2020 01:50:54 AM 430 Views
A Karen is a moron - 09/06/2020 06:42:11 PM 364 Views
It doesn't matter a whole lot - 06/06/2020 08:36:10 AM 352 Views

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