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Your second example rather proves my point, don't you think? Legolas Send a noteboard - 13/11/2018 07:50:39 PM

View original postThere are people...actual humans...who are called "it" all the time, and no one even blinks. In fact, I've heard the word used from two totally different places.

View original post1) The word "it" is used to reference a baby yet to be born. When one is asking the question of "Are you going to find out if it's a boy or a girl?" In this instance, the word "It" is used as a pronoun because of the uncertainty factor. It is not used in a disparaging way

Yet when the mother replies that it's a boy or it's a girl, or if she tells you the name, you'd switch to 'he' or 'she'. And when the same uncertainty factor is at work with adults, with gender-neutral words like e.g. 'teacher', you wouldn't use 'it' at all. So this doesn't explain how it would make sense to refer to Aran'gar as 'it'.

Part of this baby thing is a purely grammatical issue which depends on the language you're speaking. In English, the nouns 'baby' and also 'child' are neuter; you would say e.g. 'the baby/child smiles because it's happy'. But most other words describing people, like 'teacher', are not grammatically neuter, even though they are gender-neutral and can be used for men or women. Nobody will ever write 'the teacher smiles because it's happy'. Whereas in my native Dutch, the word for 'child' is also neuter, so same thing there, but the word for 'baby' is actually masculine. Hence, you'd say 'the baby smiles because he's happy', without needing to know if the baby is actually a boy or a girl. As long as the second phrase is referring back to the noun 'baby', the pronoun following will depend on the grammatical gender of the noun, so 'he' in Dutch, but 'it' in English.

But whether in Dutch or in English, if there is no earlier noun to which you are grammatically bound, and you're simply talking about a particular baby or child, you'd go with 'he' or 'she'.

And then in languages like Spanish or French, there are no neuter nouns or pronouns in any case, only masculine and feminine ones, which leads to an entirely different controversy about whether or not it's appropriate to use the masculine as a default option in cases of unknown gender, such as foetuses, or with mixed-gender groups.

View original post2) The word "it" is used to help justify an abortion, or the Holocaust, or ethnic cleansing, or any other situation where a person is "dehumanized" in order to make their death more justifiable to the individual or group.

Which would be precisely why it bothers me and fionwe to see people referred to by 'it'. As you say, it dehumanizes them, makes them seem less like a person. And although nobody cares about a fictional (and extremely reprehensible) character like Aran'gar, if Cannoli is using that pronoun in this case, it leads one to assume he'd also use it in others.

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Aran'gar and the trans issue. - 13/11/2018 12:25:48 AM 700 Views
This is exactly why the knee-jerk response was so amusing. - 13/11/2018 01:18:28 AM 425 Views
I think you could argue it's surprisingly apt. - 13/11/2018 01:31:37 AM 450 Views
I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. You don't refer to people by 'it'. - 13/11/2018 08:09:34 AM 413 Views
People are refered to by "it" all the time.... - 13/11/2018 05:26:33 PM 410 Views
But remember, human fetuses aren't people. /s *NM* - 13/11/2018 05:42:00 PM 304 Views
Your second example rather proves my point, don't you think? - 13/11/2018 07:50:39 PM 394 Views
and those of us defending Cannoli maintain - 13/11/2018 07:59:08 PM 371 Views
I'm not really commenting on Cannoli's post.... - 13/11/2018 09:20:13 PM 387 Views
FWIW mine was concerning ambiguity - 13/11/2018 11:01:03 PM 422 Views
Okay, sure. - 13/11/2018 11:26:58 PM 421 Views
Interesting.... - 13/11/2018 11:36:43 PM 401 Views
Because it is just contempt - 13/11/2018 11:45:08 PM 538 Views
I think I mostly covered that above, but I can recap. - 14/11/2018 08:02:51 AM 400 Views
Who's on the phone? - 14/11/2018 01:53:14 AM 404 Views
Sure, I agree. - 14/11/2018 07:45:58 AM 416 Views
Aran'gar does not, and doesn't have to represent, trangender people for your usage to be wrong - 13/11/2018 03:21:42 PM 417 Views
Except that it isn't a person, it is a character in a book - 14/11/2018 02:57:12 PM 394 Views
So? - 14/11/2018 07:18:10 PM 408 Views
Re: So? - 17/11/2018 02:13:37 PM 375 Views
Upon reflection, I have edited the original post - 13/11/2018 08:02:17 PM 399 Views
Thank you. *NM* - 13/11/2018 11:31:41 PM 191 Views

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