that the Pope is right 
Roland00 Send a noteboard - 11/12/2017 08:49:35 PM
First before I go on with this post, let me say you ask lots of important questions and have important thoughts but I am going to ignore what you said while trying to stay on target with the original conversation of this thread.
----
Tom is a 100% right, the Pope is committing Hersey with the lord's prayer and the associated synoptic gospels of Matthew and Luke (it does not appear in Mark which is the 3rd synoptic gospel, nor does it appear in John)
If you want to make the argument the pope is making you do not actually make the argument the pope is making. With Matthew 6:13 Tom is correct that the better way to translate the first part of 6:13 is And not lead us into with the key verb being the verb lead which is the greek word eisenenkēs (εἰσενέγκῃς strong greek number 1533).
But you can make the point the pope is trying to make by focusing on the word temptation which is the greek word peirasmon (πειρασμόν strong greek number 3986).
periasmon is a word that can have many contextual meanings, it can mean
(a) trial, probation, testing, being tried,
(b) temptation,
(c) calamity, affliction.
Furthermore the trial can be a positive trial where you prove yourself, or a negative trial.
What this word means in greek really depends on the context of the rest of the sentence and it is actually something that is highly debated what is the best way to interpret this sentence in Matthew and Luke.
Note the last part of Matthew 6:13 (but deliver us from evil) this part is not sure whether it is should be part of the original text or if its an addition due to how the oral to written process occured.
------
So how can you make the argument the Pope is making when the text is quite clear? Well instead of looking at Matthew or Luke you look to the epistles. And specifically James Chapter 1 and specifically verses 13 to 15.
James Chapter 1 I am starting at verse 12
12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has [m]been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted [n]by God”; for God cannot be tempted [o]by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin [p]is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be [q]deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or [r]shifting shadow.
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be [s]a kind of first fruits [t]among His creatures.
James in this Epistle (there is debate which James is the author of this Epistle) is effectively making the point the Pope is making. But the author of the Epistle of James did not have the audacity to say this is a better literal translation of the Lord's prayer.
Then again we do not know the author of James and which James wrote it, and some people (this is not a consensus view) argue that the Epistle of James may have been written prior to the 4 gospels being written down. Lets just say the origin of the epistle of James is very conflicted opinion and while by AD 367 (bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius of Alexandria) and the councils after 367 AD say this is definitely part of the canon there were many people prior to 367 AD who questioned the inclusion of James, and whether the whole Epistle is heretical.
that the Pope is right
- 11/12/2017 08:49:35 PM
832 Views