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I'm making the argument... Legolas Send a noteboard - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM

that the word 'communism' is universally understood as referring to the state owning the means of production, whereas the original term 'socialism' is used in multiple different meanings nowadays, but most commonly the way in which all the mainstream-left parties in Europe with the word 'socialist' in their name, as well as those young Americans, intend it. 'Poorly educated' is just sour grapes from you.

Of course I can't say that using socialism in the original sense of the word as you insist on doing is wrong, but if the goal is to make yourself clearly understood, there's a better alternative. If the goal is just to score political points for domestic American consumption by trying to associate Bernie Sanders or single-payer healthcare with the mess in Venezuela, well, carry on then. That's basically what I meant with the comment about leaving the right wing radio stuff at home. Not that I was or am expecting you to agree with that point of criticism.

View original postYou're essentially making the argument that because lots of young people are poorly educated and think socialism means "any time the government does something to help people", that this means everyone needs to base their use of the word on that misunderstanding rather than using the word properly. That's such an idiotic position to take that I had to double check that you were the one making it. Maybe we should just start saying people lacking interest are "disinterested" "irregardless" of whether or not that's right now?

As for the point of principle there - I would encourage people to use words correctly, sure, but when so many people have started using a word in a different sense from the original one that the newer meaning is the dominant one, I'm not going to stubbornly keep insisting. The meaning of words can shift over time, whether we like it or not. 'Irregardless' is pretty idiotic to you and to me, but there may come a time when it's commonly accepted English.
View original postYou're also wrong on the Soviet Union. The Soviets built socialism and were working on communism under the guidance of the Communist Party. We were right to call them communists but wrong if we called their system of government "communist". The people expressed a goal of full communism, hence they were communists. They were also socialists in the sense that they believed in full state control of the means of production prior to the implementation of total communism. However, not every socialist party seeks to go on to implement communism. That doesn't change the definition of socialism.

I would go further and say that most socialist parties don't even seek to implement your definition of 'socialism', i.e. full state control of the means of production (though they may advocate state control of some specific sectors like public transport and healthcare). Which just so happens to be the primary characteristic that the world's communist regimes have in common (if I understand your reasoning, you're saying in fact the world hasn't actually seen any communist regimes, yet I dare say you understand to which regimes I refer). Hence the shift in meaning in most people's understanding of the two words.

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such as? - 21/09/2017 08:16:48 PM 594 Views
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He's right on socialism - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 476 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 486 Views
People misuse words all the time (cf. ironic). That's their problem. - 25/09/2017 07:25:55 PM 497 Views
I'm making the argument... - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM 569 Views
Socialists are taking it back - 26/09/2017 08:03:39 PM 509 Views
...democratic... fascism? *NM* - 26/09/2017 08:22:36 PM 276 Views
Sure - 26/09/2017 08:32:17 PM 489 Views
It's an interesting idea. - 27/09/2017 02:19:19 AM 482 Views
Sounds like Singapore to me. *NM* - 27/09/2017 02:33:06 AM 264 Views
See, I wouldn't call Singapore democratic. - 27/09/2017 05:03:14 AM 424 Views
Did you see their hilarious presidential 'election' recently? *NM* - 27/09/2017 07:55:15 AM 311 Views
*shrug* - 27/09/2017 01:05:47 PM 451 Views
I think that's a weakness of your spectrum argument, though. - 27/09/2017 11:06:16 PM 402 Views
the non military is the further stretch - 27/09/2017 02:16:03 PM 480 Views
lol - 27/09/2017 02:37:00 PM 470 Views
Hmm. - 27/09/2017 06:52:46 PM 486 Views
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Uh. You say no, but what follows makes it sound like yes? - 27/09/2017 11:42:11 PM 528 Views
You're again making an idiotic argument - 27/09/2017 07:25:36 PM 490 Views
Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM 527 Views
No, socialist is socialist. What is so hard about that? - 28/09/2017 05:05:27 AM 451 Views
It was a brilliant speech all around, and you don't understand Trump based on those comments. - 21/09/2017 08:32:29 PM 500 Views
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I get it.... - 26/09/2017 09:00:35 PM 413 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 08:09:53 PM 521 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 26/09/2017 02:08:17 PM 512 Views
Trump lost credibility to me on the 'anti-PC' / 'pro free speech' issue - 26/09/2017 07:54:06 PM 421 Views
Let's hold the phone here for a moment.... - 26/09/2017 09:07:07 PM 407 Views
Too late to hold the phone! The horses are out of the barn. - 26/09/2017 09:20:06 PM 441 Views
Yeah. And not just Trump. - 26/09/2017 11:59:05 PM 408 Views
Re: Yeah. And not just Trump. - 27/09/2017 02:27:40 AM 437 Views
keep it in one thread n00b - 27/09/2017 02:52:55 AM 477 Views
Don't confuse PC with social norms - 27/09/2017 02:21:49 PM 403 Views
So... - 27/09/2017 02:39:01 PM 450 Views
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He was in town today, stumping for Luther Strange - 23/09/2017 03:58:49 AM 513 Views
You're an Alabamian, huh? Me too! - 26/09/2017 06:05:24 PM 400 Views
I'm a Kansan, I live in 'Bama - 26/09/2017 06:19:13 PM 431 Views

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