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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM
Alright then, though from the sound of things later editions have different problems. Still, my preference for GURPS was formed when 2nd Ed. (or 1st) were the only available AD&D options, and reflects that to a fair degree. Again, the biggest thing I noticed from skimming the 3rd Ed. rules was that they had begun implementing point systems like GURPS, though they did not go nearly far enough with it, IMHO.


Third Edition was all about classes and multiclassing. It was heaven for munchkins, with enough splatbooks you could dip into a couple of prestige classes for synergetic abilities and have completely overpowered specialties. More importantly for me, any attempt to homebrew anything required designing classes, and I hated that.

...BONUS stat points/4 levels?! Tell me I misread/understood that, else you practically conceded my point that characters are grossly overpowered as they level.


You have not and I have not. 2nd Edition ability scores became stupidly more powerful for every point you put in beyond 18 (to speak nothing of that ridiculous Strength percentile die for Warriors), but in later Editions ability scores progressed far more linearly. And that's for 3rd Edition. In 4th Edition you gained a +1 bonus to two ability scores at 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th level, and +1 to all scores at 11th and 21st level.

Though I could say you are right in 4th Edition, as the game is pretty insistent that every ten levels, your adventure changes in scope.

Anyway, in 2nd Ed. Str bonuses to damage ranged from +1 at 15 to +6 at 18/00 (but +5 at 18/90-91, so anything >+4 was VERY rare.) The to hit bonus was +1 at 17, +2 at 18/51 and did not reach +3 until 18/00. Dex bonuses to AC went from -1 at 15 to -4 at 19 (since Elves got a +1 Dex bonus.) Con bonuses to hit dice went from +1 at 15 to +5 at 19 (since Dwarves got a +1 to Con.) With an Ioun stone or something to raise Con to 20 characters actually got to REGENERATE HP; there is a reason I ignored the bonuses. ;) Setting that aside though, this is how it would break down with Str, Dex and Con at equal levels:

Maxxed out, the 20th level fighter has a net -1 to hit and +1 to damage when he does, but only because he is at a full 18/00.

18/91-99: -2 to hit, +0 damage; 18/76-90, -2 to hit, -1 damage; 18/51-75, -2 to hit, -2 damage. On average for exceptional stats (i.e. >18:) -1.98 to hit, -1.28 damage

18/01-50, -2 to hit, -1 damage (the attacker gets a break here because fighters could not have 18 Str, which would be -2 to hit, -2 damage.)

Straight 17s= -2 to hit, -2 damage; 16s= -2 to hit, -1 damage; 15s= -1 to hit, -1 to damage.

2nd Ed. only gave +1 damage two-handed (and only with an optional Fighters Handbook rule;) otherwise, it just changed bastard sword damage to 2d4 instead of the 1d8 it did one-handed. I THINK greatswords did 1d12 (never used them, so do not quote me;) save for a few exceptions all others did d8 or less. So unless both have straight 15s, all else being equal the 20th level fighter has -2 to hit -1 to damage (in a few cases -2) with d8 or less damage, and the 10th level fighter has 10d10 HP.

Even with a d12 greatsword the attacker gets 5.5 HP/hit, which just happens to be exactly what 10 attacks must average to drop a defender with 10d10 HP. Even at 3 attacks per round that will still take 4 rounds; given misses and the unlikelihood of the attacker wielding a greatsword, 5 or 6 rounds is more plausible. If the 20th level fighter misses even once OR has anything less than a greatsword, there is NO chance he kills the 10th level fighter with 10 attacks capped at 6 or 7 points each.

In other words, even if a 10th level fighter does not fight back, a 20th level fighter must whale on him for a full minute to kill him!


Yeah, that's pretty terrible.

OK, fine, later editions reduced that approximately one-third, partly by letting the 20th level character raise his stats 4 times (because extra attacks, HP and lower THAC0 were not already advantage enough. :P) I guess the good news for our "hapless" (but surprisingly hardy) 10th level fighter is that his opponent has not yet reached 20th level and raised Str AGAIN (is that capped, or is he in Fire Giant territory now?) That high level fighters can unleash enough firepower to level a small city does not mitigate the mid level fighters ability to absorb tremendous damage without flinching. Even in 3rd and 4th Ed. the high level fighter needs many attacks to slay a mid level fighter not even resisting. :rolleyes:


Fire Giants have Strength 31 in 3rd Edition, so no :P. An Ogre has a Strength of 21.

Actually, if he's not resisting, then you can coup de grâce him. In the case of our terrible fighter build from two posts ago, we can go for a -10 Power Attack then (more than that, actually, since a defenceless character will have penalties to defence and cannot use the Dodge feat we gave him), since you only get to do the one attack in the entire round, for 2(2d6+26) for an average of 66 damage, outright killing the 55hp fighter, and even if he survived, he'd still have to succeed at a DC 76 Fortitude Save or die outright. And, just so you have an idea of what a DC 76 save means, the Tarrasque has +38 to its Fortitude save, meaning it would have to roll a natural 38 on a d20 to survive (not exactly true, since natural 20s are always successes, but you get the point). [EDIT:] Oh, and then he'd have to roll a DC 15 Fortitude Save again to avoid dying from massive damage.

Maybe in BG (though even it allows characters to advance past 20th level; the ToB XP cap was 8 million, enough for Thieves to hit 40th level!) With tabletop AD&D it was more of an unintended consequence as characters who survived long enough became omnipotent. It got kind of ugly in later years, as TSR released expansions allowing characters to reach levels as high as 50; I have no idea how DMs kept THAT "challenging." That brings up another realism issue: How plausible is it for a character to start out as a Two Rivers farmboy and end up the Dark One? Maybe for immortal elves, or even long-lived dwarves, but a human who has maybe 60 good years between maturity and decreptitude? I guess mages can become liches, but that usually ends a career as a PC.


Yeah, I never had any interest in the 'epic levels' games. But as for characters reaching epic levels, there are any number of reasons to ascend. Take a fighter. Maybe he becomes someone like Lan, a warrior of legendary skill, until even the gods take notice and grant him a place as one one of their proxies. Or he could obtain (or forge his own) magical artefact of incredible power that allows him to travel through the planes. Or maybe he bathes in the blood of a slain Dragon and gains their power and immortality. It's just limited by your imagination.

I always understood Paladins and Rangers as Specialist Fighters just like all the Specialist Mages were still Mages, and generally viewed Bards, Druids, etc. much the same. The only one requiring separate treatment was the Bard, because of his spellcasting. The rest were just subtypes who had more disadvantages to offset a few particular extra advantages, neither of which conflicted with their basic class. Except for priest spells at high level, there is ultimately not much justification for saying Paladins and Rangers are distinct classes but Cavaliers and Barbarians are just Fighter kits (if I understood OotS correctly, the latter is now a class of its own anyway.)


Nah, I still have my 2nd Edition PHB, so I can assure you they subdivided their classes into those four groups. Mages was specifically the generalist type of Wizard. Why did they do that? Hell if I know, I stopped trying to make sense of 2nd Edition long ago.

As for 3rd Edition, yes, they made Barabarians a standard class. Also Monks.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 26/09/2012 at 11:15:01 PM
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2695 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1338 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1296 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1316 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1437 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1309 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1265 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1311 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1414 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1245 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1287 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1230 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1324 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1318 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1289 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1202 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1285 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1395 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1405 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1373 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1482 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1328 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1355 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1388 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1287 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1231 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1230 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1410 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1280 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1275 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1489 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1369 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1712 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1326 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1367 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1293 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1587 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1276 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1514 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1401 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1515 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1530 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1323 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1448 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1468 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1326 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1939 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1261 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1227 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1162 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1444 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1328 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1220 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1234 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1265 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1362 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1227 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1178 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1281 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1280 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1228 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1170 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1285 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1242 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1314 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1264 Views
The stealth skills come in very handy though. - 09/09/2012 04:11:40 PM 1257 Views
Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 695 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1222 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1208 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1308 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1235 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1309 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1188 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1207 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1330 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1226 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1288 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1256 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 711 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 707 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 690 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1289 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1200 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1246 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1166 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 685 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1273 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1238 Views

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