Actually, I haven't tried new rules systems in a while. We've gotten to the point where we're pretty much homebrewing anything we like on top of the skeletons of games we've already played. I'm working on a core of D&D 4th Edition, which has a very solid and simple ruleset (and very little else to offer, really) while my friend, as mentioned, has gotten a taste for White Wolf.
GURPS is pretty simple for players, except those who genuinely want to know every trivial detail and nuance of the rules (on the other hand, most of them love the level of complexity AVAILABLE, if optional, for them.) It taxes GMs though, because trying to cover all possible game worlds produced relatively complex rules and, while players need know nothing more than how to count up their skills, GMs must know most things, and quickly find then apply the rest on short notice.
It is still simple at its core: Every character has 100 points (though GMs can bump that up or down as they feel appropriate to the campaign; Supers characters tend to be in the 200-250 point range.) Those points may be spent on three basic things: Stats, Advantages and Skills. I typed out a relatively long overview of those before realizing most of it covered by the 4 page Instant Character sheet below linked.
Various situations require checks against one of the 4 stats, modified or otherwise. Each is made by rolling lower than the target on 3d6 (GURPS uses d6 exclusively, to avoid added expense from dice; EVERYONE has 3d6 lying around.) A 3, 4 or target-10 is always a critical success; 18 is always a crit fail, as is 17 for targets<16 (in which case a 17 is only a normal fail.)
ST covers what you would expect (encumbrance is a factor of ST in lbs., starting at 2XST for unencumbered.) It also covers fatigue, (mainly important for spells) and damage from melee and missile weapons. A friend once made a faun with 7 ST then yelled at ME when he realized it was almost impossible to do damage against light leather armor with a staff; as I said, dump stats are ill advised in GURPS. Surprisingly, ST is usually the closest GURPS comes to a dump stat.
DX covers all physical skills, which is the majority.
IQ covers all mental skills, which are the remaining, and a fair number in their own right. It also covers Will/Fright checks.
HT covers hit points; characters must make a stat check when HT<0 to stay conscious, to stay alive at -HT, and die automatically at -5XHT. At -10XHT there is not even enough to resurrect. Even if GURPS had a dump stat, this would not be it. (HT+DX)/4 is also Speed and Movement (the latter rounded down.)
Advantages are various traits conferring specific benefits for specific cost (e.g. Toughness provides pain immunity, Acute Vision/Hearing aids spot checks, Magical Aptitude gives spell casting abilities in three levels.) DISadvantages similarly inhibit characters, but provide more character points to spend elsewhere (and flavor.) Characters are limited on playability grounds to either 40 points in disadvantages, or a single disadvantage of any value. Additionally, up to 5 "quirks" worth -1 points each may be assigned before or after character creation.
Skills... this is where GURPS gets complicated, because they tried really hard to provide a skill for every contingency. An important note is that most common skills have "default" levels present with no training; many also default to other skills (e.g. Broad/Shortword are both Physical Average skills defaulting to DX-5, but also default to each other at -2.) Skills are either Physical (DX based) or Mental (IQ based,) in varying levels of difficulty (and thus cost.)
Spells are Mental Very Hard, but fortunately each of up to 3 Magical Aptitude levels is added to IQ to determine skill. Spells may be cast indefinitely, but cost fatigue each time, though high skill slightly reduces that. Ideally, spell casters want IQ 14+ and Magical Aptitude 3 (or equivalent combination) so a single point (the minimum for spells) raises skill to 15, where fatigue is reduced 1, and a 1d fireball (or equivalent) can be cast at no cost.
One wrinkle is that non-humans invariably cost points (and have unique dis/advantages.) Elves, for example, cost 40 points for the advantages DX+1, IQ+1, Unaging, Magical Aptitude 1 and Combat Reflexes, plus the disadvantages of ST-1, Sense of Duty to Nature and Code of Honor: "Always behave with style and elegance."
That is basically it, though it takes experience for GMs to become familiar with all the various Dis/Ads and Skills and when/how to apply them. The original GURPS 3rd ed. Basic Set was 256 pages long (though it included one solo and one group adventure in the back,) and the revised edition (which removed the group adventure) expanded that by 20 more. On the other hand, the linked Instant Characters PDF below is only 4 pages long (though it only lists the names and costs of dis/advantages and skills, without descriptions.) Character creation is usually fairly quick once you know what you are doing, because you have a good idea of where you want most of your points (DX and IQ) and the must fun/useful dis/advantages and skills.
The skill system discourages hyper-specialization, because raising multiple skills (especially physical) many times is invariably more expensive than just raising the stat on which they are based (and thus ALL skills based on it, present or future, along with all stat checks,) then spending only a few points on the skills. For example:
Say you have a character with 12 DX and want Broadsword-16, Riding (Horse)-16 and Bow-16, plus a couple points apiece in six other physical skills (e.g. Acrobatics, Fast Draw, Knife Throwing, Wrestling, Swimming and Sleight of Hand.)
Broadsword is an Physical Average, so raising it to DX+4 costs 24 points, and the same for Riding; Bow is Hard, so it costs 32, a total of 80. Alternatively, 10 points raises DX to 13 and suddenly it only costs 56 more to raise those three skills to 16 only costs 56 points, plus the six minor skills all go up a point, too! You can do that two more times before reaching marginal returns, and instead of a somewhat agile character with three 16 level skills and six others around 11 or 12, you have a VERY nimble character whose skills are all 14+, with three at 16—you even have an extra point to get an EXTRA skill at around 14. Only one skill cost as much as 8 point, only two others cost 4, and the rest got 1 or 2 each; how specialized is that?
That may seem long, but for an overview of an entire game system covering every campaign from Clan of the Cave Bear to Star Wars, it is not bad at all.
You surely know AD&D 2nd ed. rules well enough to know what I mean:
A 10th level fighter has 10d10 HP, so even without a Con bonus he has about 55HP on average, 10 THAC0 and is AC 10 naked (assuming no Dex bonus.)
Kobolds are 0.5 HD creatures, so a dozen have about 20 HP total, 20 THAC0 and are AC 7 (I will be generous and give them studded leather.)
The fighter will be specced at LEAST once in bow, so he gets 5/2 at 10th level; he will drop half the kobolds in the first two rounds unless he rolls a 1 for damage (if he melees with his sword he will be sweeping them and it will be equally bad.) In that time they should hit him for about 10d6 worth of damage, leaving him with 20 HP facing 7 kobolds. He wastes a couple more and they hit him for 10 HP; then he wastes three more and the last 5 hit him for 3d6. That might be enough to finally kill him; if not, his two attacks the next round will finish off the last of them.
If a single stark naked 10th level fighter faces a dozen kobolds he has about a 50/50 shot of killing them all. An average fighter would be more than slightly wounded, but that also unrealistically assumes he has no Con or Dex bonus; if he has even a 16 or 17 in either the kobolds' plight is hopeless unless they get perfect roles.
A 10th level fighter has 10d10 HP, so even without a Con bonus he has about 55HP on average, 10 THAC0 and is AC 10 naked (assuming no Dex bonus.)
Kobolds are 0.5 HD creatures, so a dozen have about 20 HP total, 20 THAC0 and are AC 7 (I will be generous and give them studded leather.)
The fighter will be specced at LEAST once in bow, so he gets 5/2 at 10th level; he will drop half the kobolds in the first two rounds unless he rolls a 1 for damage (if he melees with his sword he will be sweeping them and it will be equally bad.) In that time they should hit him for about 10d6 worth of damage, leaving him with 20 HP facing 7 kobolds. He wastes a couple more and they hit him for 10 HP; then he wastes three more and the last 5 hit him for 3d6. That might be enough to finally kill him; if not, his two attacks the next round will finish off the last of them.
If a single stark naked 10th level fighter faces a dozen kobolds he has about a 50/50 shot of killing them all. An average fighter would be more than slightly wounded, but that also unrealistically assumes he has no Con or Dex bonus; if he has even a 16 or 17 in either the kobolds' plight is hopeless unless they get perfect roles.
Yes, but why is the fighter fighting kobolds? If this is supposed to be a challenge, then the kobolds should not be fighting as 1/2 HD creatures. In 2nd Edition, kobolds don't have Advancements to boost them up to par, so you'd probably have to redesign the whole thing yourself (for example, in Shadows of Amn Irenicus' dungeons, you get to fight goblins even though you're way overlevelled for what challenge goblins should offer, same goes for 'Kobold Commandos' in the Firewine ruins) but in 3rd Edition, you should probably be giving them Warrior class levels to bring them up to par, and in 4th Edition you'd be putting Kobold traits on an appropriate 10th level template (probably 'Minion', or maybe 'Artillery' or 'Skirmisher'. It's the Dungeon Master's responsibility to ensure that his challenges are challenging.
On the other hand, if the kobold encounter is designed to show how much more powerful the adventurers have grown since the last time they encountered kobolds, then the encounter as you describe it is perfectly fine.
That's why I said I couldn't judge without context.
See, but that is just it: Levels and other advantages should not matter for a naked fighter outnumbered 12 to 1. Max the Guard in the Basic Sets solo adventure is probably equivalent to at least 3rd level (50 point character in a world where PCs are heroic at 100 and 25 is average,) but a new average ST character swinging a broadsword has a good chance of removing half his HT if he hits (and Maxs loincloth provides no armor,) forcing a check against Maxs 12 HT to avoid stunning; if he fails, he probably drops next round.
If the shoe were on the other foot it would be all the same, even though the PC has twice his experience. Max has high ST, too (12 or 13 IIRC,) so his scimitar does at least 2d, enough to kill average characters outright on a good roll. Even an average roll forces a stun check for anyone who did not spend 100 points raising HT to a superhuman 17. Fortunately, most characters can raise Parry or Dodge fairly high even if they do not bother with a shield (helpful tip: Staves and fencing blades pary at 2/3 weapon skill; the rest parry at 1/2; buying Broadsword (or whatever) to 16 is actually worth it since your parry will only be an 8, though even minimal armor will add a point or two of Passive Defense, and absorb a point or two with Damage Resistance.)
Still, it is alarmingly easy for combat to kill even the very experienced in GURPS—and real life. Around Tech Level 5 (Industrial Age) the best you can say of GURPS combat is that hitting a limb cannot do more than HT/2 damage; strangely enough, that is about the time duels fell out of fashion in the real world.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 19/09/2012 at 03:52:59 AM
Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay
07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM
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!!!!!
07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM
- 1338 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once
08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM
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BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO.
08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM
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*revelation*
08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM
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You need not be behind them to assassinate (the high level thief ability.)
08/09/2012 06:04:31 PM
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ahh yes i remember, every hit is a backstab for 30 seconds or something.
08/09/2012 07:07:12 PM
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Right; it is pretty much an instakill, considering the multipliers at the level it becomes available
08/09/2012 09:03:47 PM
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fireballs are so epic in BG1
08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM
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I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent
08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM
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Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt.
08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM
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it was such a liability
08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM
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Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once.
08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM
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There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins...
09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM
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Oops.
09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM
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that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards
09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM
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For sure; it made additional playthroughs fun even after beating the game.
09/09/2012 04:48:40 PM
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Also, FB and Skull Trap are also almost interchangeable until 10th level, but ST damage is uncapped.
09/09/2012 02:02:17 AM
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Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party.
08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM
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well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out
08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM
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Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice
08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM
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Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though?
09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM
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I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM
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Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM
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Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway...
15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM
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That is a good thought; I never played IWD.
16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM
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Where did you think I just got it?
16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM
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How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM
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Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM
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I still like GURPS' character points best.
17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM
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Heh, I'm not surprised.
18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM
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If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes.
18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM
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I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works.
18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM
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I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM
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Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM
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It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM
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Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM
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AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM
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Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM
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Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM
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My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM
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Re: My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM
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I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM
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Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM
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I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them.
28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:45:05 PM
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I thought Yrrth a perfectly fine game world; obviously anything less generic requires some effort.
25/09/2012 12:14:09 AM
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GURPS and TV Tropes are a natural fit, so I will throw in a link to their page on it.
19/09/2012 03:50:37 AM
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I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far.
18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM
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I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1
08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM
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If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods.
08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM
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But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs?
08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM
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Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling.
08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM
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Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy.
09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM
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Well, there are always mods for that.
09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM
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For talking to pretty much anyone, really.
09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM
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True.
09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM
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Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party.
09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM
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there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB
09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM
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I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP.
09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM
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Just how many thieves do you even need?
10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM
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You can get by with half a thief, yeah, but it forces you to forego maxing out some thief abilities.
10/09/2012 06:47:48 PM
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Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM*
10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM
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I am completely stoked about it.
10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM
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TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun.
10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM
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all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee
11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM
- 1207 Views
Ah; nice.
11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM
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i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time
12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM
- 1226 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom.
13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM
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If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993.
13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM
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Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM*
13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM
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That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM*
13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM
- 690 Views
Fair enough; I was thinking of Doom in terms of when I started playing it and Doom II (1995.)
14/09/2012 03:56:50 PM
- 1362 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it
12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM
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Good, me neither, but I have heard others criticize them.
12/09/2012 11:51:16 PM
- 1182 Views
I used the PS3 web browser as my primary browser for about 3 months
13/09/2012 01:13:22 PM
- 1225 Views
*nods* I suspected as much, but had no first hand experience confirming it.
14/09/2012 04:03:15 PM
- 1280 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related.
10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM
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And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM*
15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM
- 685 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul
15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM
- 1273 Views