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I can finally read this thread. And I believe I'm in the "that was pretty good" camp. Aemon Send a noteboard - 07/04/2012 04:31:45 AM
Since no one else has done much of this, I'm going to try to defend a couple of the decisions that you complain about below. Not all of them, but the few that I thought were ok/good, anyway.

We get the 'hitherto unknown true enemy showing up to explain WTF is going on through a weird conversation' sequence


I sort of agree with you here, but I didn't think this was a particularly bad instance of the cliche. It's not like they pulled a Norse god out of the hat, they just revealed a higher level of AI consciousness. We hadn't seen it before, but it was very believable and fit in with the story. The reason these cliches are so annoying in most other games is because they lead you to believe that you've won, and then pull the REAL enemy out. It ruins the apex of the story because you care more about the enemy you've known about for the whole game than you do the "real" enemy. That's not really a problem in ME3, though. AI-dude is still the Reapers, more or less.

Now the Reapers are destroying organic life (after harvesting the best examples of it from each 50,000-year-long cycle) because if they don't, they will develop their own synthetic servitors who will inevitably destroy them.

Yeah.

Now, obviously that's nonsensical (if the Reapers kill organic life or their own future-cylons do it, so what, they're going to die anyway, why not let them have a few tens of thousands of years of fun in the meantime?).


This is the part I take most issue with, because I actually really liked this part of the story. The reapers do kill organic life, but they also preserve it. Each new civilization becomes part of the reaper collective to survive for all time. The reapers believe (or at least their higher AI consciousness believes) that, left unchecked, synthetic life would dominate the galaxy to such a degree that organic life would never again develop. The reapers therefore "prune" the galaxy shortly before the point when synthetics take over, allowing the organic cycle to start anew. And you know, that sort of makes sense. In the reaper model there is always a flourishing level of organic life (because they only harvest the advanced species). They are allowed to develop however they will for tens of thousands of years, and then, at the end, their progress, culture and essence are preserved. From the perspective of an organic, is that really worse than the permanent annihilation of organic life from the galaxy?

It also doesn't help that as a theme it doesn't have a huge amount to do with the rest of the games: the geth and EDI storylines are not dominant prior to MASS EFFECT 3 itself (when they suddenly become so, as clumsy foreshadowing for the ending). In addition, two of the key themes of the series are that the different races can learn to coexist peacefully, as you prove when you peacefully unite the quarians and geth in ME3 itself, and the power of the freedom of choice. In the finale it is not possible to continue this process. You either have to wipe out all synthetic life (including the now-peaceful geth and EDI, your own allied AI character), forcibly turn everyone into cyborgs (denying them the right of free choice) or take control of the Reapers and exile them from the galaxy forever (which sounds okay until you realise it will destroy the FTL Mass Relays, as indeed the other two choices do).


I'll try to be quick. Firstly, the Geth and Edi storylines never really become "dominant." The Geth have a large and important mission, but no more important than the others (and no more important than the ones in the last game). Edi never gets a mission at all.

Secondly, yes, it's possible to get the Geth and the Quarians to work together, but it's also difficult. There aren't many paths that lead that way, and most players will see the attempt at resolution literally blow itself to pieces. You can just as easily argue that the theme there is that cooperation is unrealistic.

Lastly, destroying the mass relays makes sense. I always assumed that would happen, personally. You're told throughout the game that you are assembling a giant device that will project "an energy" of some sort that will defeat the reapers. I was picturing a giant EMP (and that's basically what it was in the ending I got). It only makes sense that a device designed to obliterate high technology would wipe out the mass relays. I actually like the idea of mass relays being destroyed, myself. It will force future societies to develop their own technology and solutions instead of just piggy-backing what has come before. Keep in mind that Element Zero and the knowledge of how to work it still exists, so it's not like they're back to square one.

In short, the three different endings are not that different: you die anyway and the Mass Relays are destroyed and FTL travel is shut down regardless. The only difference is that in the Destroy ending, EDI and the geth are all slaughtered as well, whilst in Control they are not. In both cases we are told the cycle will resume millennia down the line and the organic races will be wiped out. Synthesis is presented as the best option by the Reapers - it ends the cycle by creating a new paradigm where synthetics and organics coexist as the same form of life - but it also turns Shepard into a kind of monstrous god, converting everyone in the galaxy against their will into cyborgs. In addition, it should be treated with suspicion as Synthesis is what the Reapers were doing (on their more brutal terms, merging a few million lifeforms with synthetic technology and killing everyone else).


True, there is no "happy" ending, but why should there be? It's not a bad ending just because everyone didn't live happily ever after.

Where the biggest problem kicks in is that with Destroy, you are told that it's your own cybernetic implants (in place after your revival at the start of ME2) will kill you. But they don't. Presuming you got a high enough military effectiveness score, you actually live. A later credits sequence shows Shepard surviving. Which is weird as it proves that the Reapers are lying their heads off about what is going on (some players have also reported seeing EDI getting out of the Normandy having chosen Destroy, which also indicates the Reapers are lying, but it's possible that's a bug with the wrong animated sequence triggering).


It's not a perfect rationalization, but I'm ok with imagining that the AI consciousness wrongly believed that Shepard's implants would kill him. It's messy, but this doesn't really seem like a plot hole, exactly.

The ending is thus nonsensical from the point of view of internal logic. We also need to add the bit of the ending where the Normandy - at that point in orbit around Earth - is suddenly showing fleeing to another system through a Mass Relay before it blows. Erm, why? Where are they going? How did they get to the relay when moments before they were at Earth? How did your team-mates from the final mission in London get back to the Normandy in the few minutes the end of the game covers? Why were they cutting and running when it looked like you were winning?


This one is a lot easier to rationalize. Right before you go into the beacon, the radio chatter specifically says that the entire hammer was destroyed, and that no one made it to the beam. Says the team was wiped out to a man. So let's say you're Joker, sitting up there in your fancy ship and you hear that the attack failed, and Shepard is dead. What do you do? Well, you try to rescue whichever friends are left and get outta dodge. It seems totally reasonable to me that Joker and company were fleeing from earth.

Now, there is the thing about Hackett calling Shepard, but that's not a big deal. Either:
1) Joker was already gone
or
2) Hackett was addressing a private channel that joker didn't have access to.

Fans have come up with a possible solution, but it's rather cynical if BioWare are doing this. The game is seeded with frequent suggestions that Shepard may have been indoctrinated by the Reapers. There are repeated, numerous references to indoctrinated people seeing things that are not there, having weird visions and dreams and hearing voices. The final sequence of the game, from when Shepard is hit by Harbinger's beam in London, is surreal and weird. Shepard has a weapon with infinite ammo which appears in this sequence. Paragon and Renegade choices are reversed (if Shepard does not choose the Renegade actions twice in a row in the final confrontation, first Anderson and then himself will die, despite the actions not being Renegade in the slightest). Black specks around the edge of the screen similar to those in his dream sequences appear. The trees from Shepard's dreams are present around the transport beam at the end of the game. The Reaper intelligence takes the form of the boy Shepard has been dreaming about all game for no particular reason (a boy, btw, that no-one else sees or interacts with at the start of the game when he's supposedly there in the flesh). It's also worth noting that the Reaper intelligence is shown gloating if you choose Control or Synthesis, but vanishes almost instantly if choose Destroy. And we know it's lying about Destroy if Shepard can survive it (and only it). Finally, if Shepard chooses Destroy and lives, he wakes up in the rubble and wreckage of what appears to be London, not on the Citadel (unless the Citadel mysteriously turns out to have been built with concrete).

The conclusion, therefore, is that Shepard's final confrontation in the game is actually a hallucination brought about by an attempt at Reaper Indoctrination. Choosing Control or Synthesis permits the Reapers' victory and sees Shepard fall under the Reapers' control. Choosing Destroy frees Shepard from the Reapers' control. If you have a high enough score, Shepard can survive the process and presumably resume the fight in a future expansion or DLC.

There's certainly more than enough evidence to support the Indoctrination Theory (the thread discussing it at BioWare's website was well north of 400 pages long on the last count and BioWare personnel have been directing complainants to read that thread). We know from interviews and storyboards released by BioWare on an iPhone app that indoctrination was going to play a bigger role in the game (with Shepard falling prey to it in the final moments of the game and losing control of his limbs, though still being able to talk) but they took it out, or at least de-emphasised it. So certainly it's an idea that was in their minds when writing the ending.

The problem, going forwards, is that this means we will get additional DLC or stuff to resolve the ending. If it's free, that's okay but feels weird if you've just paid £30 (or $60 or whatever) for the game and then have to wait several months to get the 'real' ending. If it isn't free, then it would feel like a desperate money-grab by EA and BioWare which would likely wreck whatever goodwill the gaming community has left for them.

The sad alternative is that BioWare left this stuff in to make players think about it, but have no plans to make the ending clearer and have left the game with these illogical and bizarre choices which don't make much sense. In either case, it was really not a good idea.


No, I agree, the indoctrination bit was not done well. I don't understand the gigantic backlash about this part, though. Similar things are done all the time in other games, movies, etc. Take Inception, for example (spoilers for those who haven't watched). The ending to that was very much the same. You don't know if any of it really happened, and no follow-ups were planned. Why hate on Mass Effect so much?

Still, the other 99% of the game was excellent :)


For the most part. It was a shining example of both the best and the worst parts of Western RPGs.

Pro:

Excellent story, great dialog and voice acting, superb pacing throughout the game.

Con:

Virtually zero control over your character's practical effectiveness. In a JRPG, you can show up to a Boss's lair and get your rear end handed to you dozens of times in a row. It's completely possible to be too weak to progress through a certain area. It's possible to lose if you use the wrong tactics, or equip poor gear, or level up the wrong spell, etc. In Mass Effect you have nothing but the illusion of choice. Leveling up means nothing because the story does it for you. Even the levels themselves hardly mean anything. You can ignore every side mission in the game, do the bare minimum and allocate your leveling points in the worst way possible, and hardly have any more difficulty at all.

Other annoyances that aren't specific to Western RPGs:

1) Actually, there's only one. The freaking citadel fedex quests. Just about every story mission you complete opens up new planets to explore. Which means new deliverables to pick up. Which means running through every room in the citadel each time. EVERY time you complete a story mission you have to run through most of the citadel. That absolutely drove me up the wall.

Anyway, I'm over it. ;)
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I can finally read this thread. And I believe I'm in the "that was pretty good" camp. - 07/04/2012 04:31:45 AM 884 Views
I take issue with one of your issues - 08/04/2012 12:20:00 AM 950 Views
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