I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
LadyLorraine Send a noteboard - 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
So given that I had many friends who were hispanic and fresh out of legal immigrant families, I went with it But you could say the same about other countries with similar or worse living conditions, which really was my point there. Mexicans/hispanics are just the group I'm most familiar with.
As I said, the only reason I used mexicans were because that's what I'm familiar with. You could substitute any applicable group, and I wasn't hinking there was some magic quota And I'm not saying that this family shouldn't come here!! I'm just saying that they shouldn't use Asylum to do so.
I don't think they were persecuted because it wasn't public-school or die!! They could have sent their kids to ANY school for that one year. They could have picked a nice little evangelical school, or a private school that taught a curriculum they agree with. They could have, you know, thought about the fact that home schooling is illegal in Germany before their kids were of schooling age. That's always a good thing too. Think of all that time and money and horrible indoctrination that could have been saved. The fines and police-marching are shitty, but it's not like they couldn't have started the application process before they had kids, or when their kids were nearing of-schooling age. Or did they think they'd be able to slip under the radar? I don't know. Either way, I think you do raise a good point how it could be considered persecution, but it's not like Germany teaches Nazi-ism and Atheism. Unless their kids are in middle school, they wouldn't even be learning controversial things like "evolution" (which I would presume as evangelicals they'd have an objection to). In this instance, I would not call it persecution. If it was a different country, I could possibly agree with you, but in this instance, I think Asylum was totally unnecessary.
Now, what we were arguing was two-fold.
1) Whether the family had a moral "right" to invoke the law. You said no, because there were other people who deserved it more. Namely, Mexicans. I pointed out that this family immigrating through use of Asylum law has no effect whatsoever on Mexican immigrants. It's not like there're ten slots every year, and once they're gone, they're gone. It's a case by case basis. Some people definitely deserve to be here more than these people, and aren't able to make it happen, for various reasons, but that doesn't mean this family shouldn't come too.
As I said, the only reason I used mexicans were because that's what I'm familiar with. You could substitute any applicable group, and I wasn't hinking there was some magic quota And I'm not saying that this family shouldn't come here!! I'm just saying that they shouldn't use Asylum to do so.
2) The morality of the law itself / the judge's decision. You said that the law shouldn't apply to people like this because they're not persecuted. Going to school for a year is "no big deal." I said that, generically, being fined tens of thousands of dollars and having policemen show up every morning to take your kids to be indoctrinated in a belief system you vehemently disagree with DOES sound like persecution. The only reason you don't think they were persecuted is that you don't agree with their morals.
I don't think they were persecuted because it wasn't public-school or die!! They could have sent their kids to ANY school for that one year. They could have picked a nice little evangelical school, or a private school that taught a curriculum they agree with. They could have, you know, thought about the fact that home schooling is illegal in Germany before their kids were of schooling age. That's always a good thing too. Think of all that time and money and horrible indoctrination that could have been saved. The fines and police-marching are shitty, but it's not like they couldn't have started the application process before they had kids, or when their kids were nearing of-schooling age. Or did they think they'd be able to slip under the radar? I don't know. Either way, I think you do raise a good point how it could be considered persecution, but it's not like Germany teaches Nazi-ism and Atheism. Unless their kids are in middle school, they wouldn't even be learning controversial things like "evolution" (which I would presume as evangelicals they'd have an objection to). In this instance, I would not call it persecution. If it was a different country, I could possibly agree with you, but in this instance, I think Asylum was totally unnecessary.
So. Nice little summary for us there.
Still Empress of the Poofy Purple Pillow Pile Palace!!
Continued Love of my Aussie <3
Continued Love of my Aussie <3
Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
02/03/2010 10:30:01 PM
- 1403 Views
Looks like a win-win situation to me.
02/03/2010 11:01:22 PM
- 655 Views
Germany does have a history of getting rid of people it doesn't like *NM*
03/03/2010 02:08:37 PM
- 393 Views
Yawn. At least beckstcw was joking when he invoked Godwin's law below. I hope. *NM*
03/03/2010 02:10:18 PM
- 360 Views
That is a load of crap
03/03/2010 02:53:02 PM
- 434 Views
uhm, how would Germany be offending the US?
03/03/2010 02:56:52 PM
- 393 Views
Um.
03/03/2010 02:57:53 PM
- 282 Views
But our religious beliefs and belief in allowing religious freedom is fair game?
03/03/2010 03:09:48 PM
- 277 Views
Yes?
03/03/2010 03:40:30 PM
- 264 Views
If you made fun of the Native Americans I would be offended
03/03/2010 03:46:05 PM
- 504 Views
It's actually quite the opposite.
03/03/2010 03:57:19 PM
- 485 Views
and I would say they trying to fix intolerance with more intolerance
03/03/2010 04:13:49 PM
- 271 Views
That was probably the stupidest thing I ever saw you write
03/03/2010 03:28:39 PM
- 432 Views
You were the one who said good riddance
03/03/2010 03:43:24 PM
- 297 Views
It's the usual story of American ideology and European pragmatism.
03/03/2010 03:52:51 PM
- 458 Views
This is getting a bit off the discussion. Please keep it civil, everyone. *NM*
03/03/2010 06:55:11 PM
- 375 Views
Re: Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
03/03/2010 01:09:23 AM
- 789 Views
The socialization thing is mostly garbage
03/03/2010 02:32:19 AM
- 663 Views
Yep, exactly.
03/03/2010 02:41:14 AM
- 457 Views
Re: Yep, exactly.
03/03/2010 03:12:48 AM
- 433 Views
*shrugs* I said it was anecdotal. I have no hard figures, only experiences.
03/03/2010 03:28:29 AM
- 457 Views
The operative word IS mostly
03/03/2010 04:33:20 AM
- 631 Views
'Mostly' is all that matters
03/03/2010 05:46:01 AM
- 661 Views
Uhm, socialization is incredibly important.
03/03/2010 06:03:30 AM
- 635 Views
Yes, but you don't need to be taught to do it
03/03/2010 06:47:06 AM
- 596 Views
cats aren't pack or herd animals
03/03/2010 06:53:02 AM
- 579 Views
Something of an inside joke, sorry
03/03/2010 07:41:50 AM
- 622 Views
us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
03/03/2010 01:05:27 PM
- 439 Views
Re: us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
03/03/2010 10:19:21 PM
- 499 Views
I would agree that households with two working parnets shouldn't home school *NM*
03/03/2010 03:22:51 PM
- 353 Views
to jump on the "I was homeschooled and I have social skills" bandwagon...
03/03/2010 06:27:05 AM
- 968 Views
I was homeschooled through grade 12, and my mom has done pro bono legal work for HSLDA.
03/03/2010 02:20:38 AM
- 585 Views
I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
03/03/2010 04:42:21 AM
- 722 Views
Re: I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
03/03/2010 05:16:17 AM
- 552 Views
It depends on the public school.
03/03/2010 05:23:09 AM
- 595 Views
Re: It depends on the public school.
03/03/2010 05:45:07 AM
- 596 Views
"done right" is not always the case
03/03/2010 05:58:26 AM
- 419 Views
Re: "done right" is not always the case
03/03/2010 06:14:43 AM
- 733 Views
Re: "done right" is not always the case
03/03/2010 06:31:04 AM
- 645 Views
Well let's talk stats then.
03/03/2010 06:55:14 AM
- 608 Views
please do not get me started on statistis.
03/03/2010 07:11:19 AM
- 530 Views
Your comments on public school educations have rather limited relevance to other countries, though.
03/03/2010 09:53:30 AM
- 662 Views
While I support homeschooling, this is ridiculous.
03/03/2010 04:48:40 AM
- 719 Views
Meh.
03/03/2010 05:20:50 AM
- 643 Views
one year in a public school
03/03/2010 05:32:13 AM
- 663 Views
Re: one year in a public school
03/03/2010 05:58:48 AM
- 462 Views
No, I think i will nitpick.
03/03/2010 06:11:44 AM
- 578 Views
This is getting off track and wasting time.
03/03/2010 06:26:36 AM
- 629 Views
I'm not even certain it's 100% legal.
03/03/2010 06:34:44 AM
- 416 Views
Yes, but we can't argue abuse of law.
03/03/2010 06:51:23 AM
- 533 Views
I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
- 629 Views
I think I have the gist of it,
03/03/2010 07:17:40 AM
- 554 Views
we haven't heard anything about their beliefs for me to think they're stupid.
03/03/2010 02:54:25 PM
- 637 Views
According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung...
03/03/2010 03:38:13 PM
- 562 Views
Say what?
03/03/2010 09:38:40 AM
- 508 Views
Being able raise your kids by your beliefs is a frivolous matter?
03/03/2010 03:21:23 PM
- 434 Views
Germany is not saying "you can't raise your kids by your beliefs"
03/03/2010 03:31:01 PM
- 558 Views
It's not a recent law, and supposedly other German families have moved to France and the UK.
03/03/2010 03:45:56 PM
- 658 Views
I think that would fly in very face of political assylum
03/03/2010 04:12:48 PM
- 593 Views
Yes, but they did not need political asylum.
03/03/2010 04:28:16 PM
- 627 Views
how is that different then other political refuges we allow in?
03/03/2010 04:55:14 PM
- 518 Views
I believe Legolas linked an article
03/03/2010 04:57:09 PM
- 502 Views
I never saw the link
03/03/2010 05:08:21 PM
- 417 Views
I'm not sure if they offered "formal" assurances or some such
03/03/2010 05:21:54 PM
- 341 Views
that was a mayor, I doubt he would have the final word on the issue
03/03/2010 05:46:22 PM
- 403 Views
You don't have a law about removing children from parental custody? At all?
03/03/2010 09:43:15 PM
- 556 Views
They can take your kids from for not sending them to school but not for home schooling them
03/03/2010 10:35:48 PM
- 558 Views
Compared to not being able to feed your kids, yes, it is.
03/03/2010 03:42:58 PM
- 438 Views
yes but we don't grant political assylum for being hungry
03/03/2010 04:34:23 PM
- 521 Views
no we don't.
03/03/2010 04:50:31 PM
- 397 Views
Do you have a better system?
03/03/2010 05:05:42 PM
- 685 Views
Immigration processes could certainly use some reform
03/03/2010 05:32:22 PM
- 489 Views
The system sucks, big government typically does not function well
03/03/2010 05:48:25 PM
- 420 Views
Oh, and did you miss the part where the federal government is appealing the decision? *NM*
03/03/2010 09:40:42 AM
- 357 Views
I would consider the threat of losing my children because of my beliefs to be a real threat *NM*
03/03/2010 02:54:08 PM
- 397 Views
Doesn't matter why, but all parents should have the right to homeschool.....
03/03/2010 04:48:57 AM
- 455 Views
That whole thing is pretty silly
03/03/2010 12:18:45 PM
- 690 Views
Re: socialising.
03/03/2010 06:13:49 PM
- 666 Views
I am opposed to homeschooling but believe it should be a legal option.
03/03/2010 02:32:34 PM
- 606 Views
I think you make a good point here
03/03/2010 05:22:59 PM
- 643 Views
but...but...parents can't educate their children outside of school!!
03/03/2010 05:40:30 PM
- 579 Views
I don't agree with them I just support their right to be wrong
03/03/2010 06:04:11 PM
- 648 Views
The statistics are flawed, as I've noted above
03/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
- 496 Views
they tend to beat private schools as well would should flatten out the demographics
03/03/2010 07:53:38 PM
- 577 Views
Your views on this are not fact-driven
03/03/2010 09:13:07 PM
- 658 Views
No, what you're saying is that my answer isn't driven by STATISTICS.
03/03/2010 10:36:50 PM
- 586 Views
Granted, but there is no obvious source for bias
03/03/2010 10:57:19 PM
- 512 Views
You mean aside from the fact that you are already arguing about it?
04/03/2010 12:14:02 AM
- 421 Views
Yes, I mentioned this in my reply to Tom, see below...
04/03/2010 12:19:42 AM
- 559 Views
And the wikipedia article you pointed me to had a different study that contradicts your point.
03/03/2010 10:42:54 PM
- 506 Views
Religious or *moral* instruction
03/03/2010 10:49:48 PM
- 612 Views
I haven't really "met" you the way I meant it in that reply
03/03/2010 11:48:11 PM
- 413 Views
Granted but for our purposes I think people on this site would qualify
04/03/2010 12:05:03 AM
- 559 Views
Umm Massachusetts did have slavery in 1717
03/03/2010 02:55:25 PM
- 513 Views
His argument on the law of Germany is a bad one generally, though, not just for that reason.
03/03/2010 03:31:00 PM
- 430 Views
Wow....so this got the board going. A question for everyone...
03/03/2010 06:02:57 PM
- 704 Views
I think it is incumbent on the state to show that kids are being in some way harmed
03/03/2010 06:07:13 PM
- 613 Views
Interesting
03/03/2010 06:25:43 PM
- 722 Views
I never said there should be no limits on what parents should be able to do
03/03/2010 06:38:53 PM
- 669 Views
I think it's safe to say teaching your kids to be little sociopaths qualifies as harm.
03/03/2010 09:17:48 PM
- 443 Views
I think so too
03/03/2010 10:46:41 PM
- 668 Views
I think the problem there was it was seen as inherently political, that, and showing harm.
03/03/2010 11:44:21 PM
- 499 Views
Yes they do. Provided...
03/03/2010 07:04:46 PM
- 546 Views
There is a reason why education until 18 (or 16, depending) is not merely a right, but a duty.
03/03/2010 10:00:53 PM
- 613 Views
Hmmph. Inappropriate action on the part of the judge who allowed them to stay.
03/03/2010 06:22:08 PM
- 560 Views
You just skip the part where they have to show they are being persecuted
03/03/2010 06:54:20 PM
- 674 Views
As I said, most people would prefer to have their safety threatened to losing their kids. *NM*
06/03/2010 10:14:52 PM
- 420 Views
*walks in, looks around*
03/03/2010 07:52:09 PM
- 650 Views
Interesting
03/03/2010 11:02:27 PM
- 636 Views