Active Users:572 Time:15/11/2024 04:46:41 PM
Churchill's justification of bombings cited civilians as the targets, IIRC Cannoli Send a noteboard - 03/02/2010 12:46:16 AM
My only quibble is that, while no country is perfect, Allied bombings of non-military targets in WWII was very much the exception rather than the rule. Even in Dresden; Wikipedia notes (and cites; they didn't pull it out of thin air) that claim is disputed on the grounds that "several researchers have argued that not all of the communications infrastructure, such as the bridges, were in fact targeted, nor were the extensive industrial areas outside the city centre. "
Actually the guy Churchill had studying the effects of bombings found that that vast majority of the bombs missed their targets. And his definition of 'hitting a target' meant landing within a mile and a half! He said that a better description of what the bombers were doing would be "exporting explosives." By the time of Dresden, Churchill claimed the point was to drive the civilians out of the cities to block the roads and interfere with troop movements.

That's fine if you want to believe the Allies deliberately ignored significant military targets just to inflict suffering on the civilian German populace, but since the Allied commanders probably knew better than anyone that the German populace had little say in the war by then it seems dubious.
They didn't give a flying crap one way or another. As was well-known to their political superiors, and should have been known to them, it wasn't so much an issue of ignoring military targets to aim at civilians, as their sheer inability to actually make that distinction meaningful.

Additionally, they were middle-aged to elderly men whose careers were heavily invested in being experts at bombing. Damned if they were going to admit the situation called for anything other than more bombing. To confess that they had no clue what they were doing, and that it was an appalling waste of munitions, money & lives on their side, and to the other, an atrocity whose sole virtue was the ability of the performers to distance themselves from the results, would have meant admitting that they were responsible for all the men who were killed uselessly on bombing sorties, the civilians who were slaughtered indiscriminately, and the wasted resources that could have gone to something more useful. Like, say, equipment to better protect the ground troops who were doing the actual work of pushing back the Germans. The claims that the strategic bombing campaigns had an appreciable effect on production or morale cannot be taken seriously considering that German production actually accelerated during the height of the strategic bombing campaign, and did not noticable slow down until late in 1944 to 1945, when the last German sources of iron & oil (France & Romania, respectively) were out of their hands.

All of that said, however, a case can be made, and if one accepts that case then I agree it would qualify as terrorism. Deliberately targeting civilians as an end in itself is reprehensible whoever does it, but if you insist on zero civilian casualties then every invading army will mount babies on the front of their tanks.
Of course. Collateral damage is perfectly acceptable, morally speaking (not having to run for re-election I am rather indifferent to the PR aspects). The question is actually whether or not they are collateral or the only damage. I'd have signed off on targeting an orphanage if I had reliable intelligence that Hitler was inspecting it, but not bombing random orphanages on the off-chance he might be in one of them. When the inefficacy of your weapons, such as that of high-altitude or night-time bombing, renders any sort of accurrate targeting impossible, and this is known at the highest levels during the conflict, the moral justification drops off sharply. And when the civilians are deliberately targeted, merely because they produce food or might work in factories that produce war materiel, or to dishearten the troops - terrorism. Period. And regarding that last, whenever I see dramatizations of WW2 on the Western Front I tend to want to smack the anglophonic troops. I imagine post-war a GI making friends with a former Wehrmacht conscript and talking about their tribulations.
GI:"I got a Dear John letter, and Ma says they're rationing sugar and butter, so she can't have a cake for me when I get home. I am so unhappy."
Fritz:"Ja, I understand where you are coming from. Mein parents were killed when our block was randomly bombed und my girlfriend was gang-raped by Russians, so I can totally commiserate."

Of course that scenario is silly. They wouldn't have been friends, since official Allied occupation policy was to forbid speaking to Germans as a punitive measure to dehumanize them, and ol' Fritz would have been starving in an internment camp, where he would have been re-classified as something other than a Prisoner of War, since we were not feeding German prisoners enough to meet the Geneva Convention standards for official POWs.

And while the horrors Germany inflicted on Poland on the Ostfront, as well as the entire history of Stalin's regime, combine to make Malmedy look like a practical joke, it simply does not excuse our conduct. Reciprocity would have been one thing, but there was no real attempt to use brutality to dissuage the Germans from the same.

One could argue we merely encouraged German terrorism, since the historically unprecedented unconditional surrender proclamation at Casablanca left them no way out. We basically announced our intention to utterly destroy them, which left them no recourse but a fight to the death. The rebuttal of overtures from German resistance movements and the strategic bombing campaign helped encourage that mindset among Hitler's followers and made them more likely to stick by him, believing that if they could not throw him to the lions, they might as well try to help him stave them off.

Whether we can sell our agreed upon definition of "terrorist" and "guerrilla" remains to be seen.... :disapprove:
Meh. Politicians & their court historians are irrevocably committed to the highly complex scale of nomenclature determination which might best be summed up as "Them" and "Us."

"Father and Mother and me,
Sister and Auntie say,
And all the nice people like Us are We
And everyone else is They." - Kipling
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
All Terrorists are Muslims… except the 94% that aren’t. - 01/02/2010 10:42:12 PM 1704 Views
I find that unsurprising. - 01/02/2010 11:31:43 PM 397 Views
Lot of BS in there - 01/02/2010 11:33:08 PM 506 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with this. - 01/02/2010 11:46:02 PM 461 Views
Well, no. Robbery accounts for a very small percentage of those attacks. Look at the chart. - 01/02/2010 11:50:39 PM 414 Views
I found the so-called Islamophobic reply... allow me to quote it in its entirety. - 01/02/2010 11:52:37 PM 438 Views
It's a valid complaint. *NM* - 02/02/2010 01:49:08 AM 178 Views
Whose complaint is valid? - 02/02/2010 01:55:58 AM 403 Views
Yours. *NM* - 02/02/2010 02:15:01 AM 175 Views
I did note the rampant bias. - 01/02/2010 11:48:55 PM 513 Views
What about attacks on Iraqi police volunteers? - 01/02/2010 11:53:58 PM 424 Views
it only included attacks on American soil *NM* - 02/02/2010 02:03:16 PM 186 Views
Most of the Iraq violence isn't against the foreign occupier... - 01/02/2010 11:54:44 PM 431 Views
Ahem... /\ /\ /\ - 01/02/2010 11:56:34 PM 463 Views
Dude, 46 seconds. I was typing it while you posted. *NM* - 02/02/2010 12:05:44 AM 164 Views
True, but I was referring to attacks on US soldiers. - 02/02/2010 01:47:55 AM 406 Views
That's still a bad benchmark - 02/02/2010 10:00:23 AM 499 Views
You would be very wrong - 02/02/2010 02:11:08 PM 458 Views
Um, since when is all Mid-East terrorism against foreign occupiers? - 02/02/2010 12:33:13 AM 587 Views
I would agree with this. - 02/02/2010 02:33:47 AM 501 Views
It was bound to happen sooner or later. - 02/02/2010 04:10:13 AM 531 Views
This is the only problem I have with "definitions" - 02/02/2010 04:51:00 AM 409 Views
You're conflating two types of fighters who shouldn't be, I believe. - 03/02/2010 06:16:21 AM 400 Views
I think you missed the point. - 05/02/2010 05:15:40 AM 405 Views
One of us did. - 05/02/2010 08:26:07 AM 578 Views
I'm not talking ETHICALLY or MORALLY - 14/02/2010 06:41:32 PM 407 Views
I was, or at least speaking legally. - 15/02/2010 06:54:50 AM 473 Views
Churchill's justification of bombings cited civilians as the targets, IIRC - 03/02/2010 12:46:16 AM 601 Views
I did say, "deliberately, " and for a reason. - 03/02/2010 04:23:44 AM 549 Views
Re: I did say, "deliberately, " and for a reason. - 05/02/2010 02:22:10 AM 751 Views
Re: I did say, "deliberately, " and for a reason. - 15/02/2010 09:46:48 AM 556 Views
Lame. - 01/02/2010 11:55:50 PM 396 Views
Demographics are the key, methinks. - 02/02/2010 12:20:46 AM 517 Views
WTF? Are these people serious? - 02/02/2010 02:19:05 AM 449 Views
Ah, good. I've driven you out of lurking. Now recommend me operas. *NM* - 02/02/2010 02:41:30 AM 170 Views
Huh? *NM* - 02/02/2010 02:03:24 PM 177 Views
I made a survey on musicals and operas on the board! - 02/02/2010 05:15:45 PM 381 Views
I agree with tom - 02/02/2010 02:54:53 AM 421 Views
So what? - 02/02/2010 02:23:42 AM 466 Views
Waco were terrorist? Do they just make this crap up? *NM* - 02/02/2010 02:00:40 PM 357 Views
leftist dhimmi allies... rofl - 04/02/2010 04:56:48 AM 407 Views

Reply to Message