Well, I'm on record as NOT being a Paul fan. Given that the man never even met the big JC he seems to be the wrong person to go to for interpretation and wisdom.

Of course, he claims to have had an epiphany from God. No one else was there on that road. Maybe he just had a stroke? Or an attack of schizophrenia? There are folks who claim to hear God telling them to do things and then go out and do them. Sometimes we call those folks holy men. Sometimes we call them lunatics. Sometimes we call them opportunistic evangelical faith healer types. Which was Paul? You go me. He wasn't the most hateful guy ever, but not exactly the most progressive either. I think a lot of the worst bits of the Christian church flow from Paul though.

(Well, okay, if we leave out the Old Testament).




All open to interpretation, which means all open to not being right.



Perhaps the entire reason that homosexuals cannot reproduce is that God foresaw the problems of overpopulation that face us today?

Let's face it - we've been rather a bit too good at being fruitful and multiplying. We need to ramp it down a bit.


<snip>I honestly don't know; I thank God I'm not gay because, while the issue still troubles me, at least I'm not directly affected by the outcome.

I feel for the folks who have to deal with that conflict too. It must be awful.



Well, at least now you can speak somewhat knowledgeably about the topic.

However keep this in mind - your own personal experience with love and sex is still limited. I can guarantee you this - it WILL change over time. It does for everyone. What it will change INTO - well that varies widely.

I know folks who simply don't need/aren't interested in sex. I know others who have serious psychological issues without that release. Much of it is just the chemical stew in our brains making choices for us.

What's worrisome is that it is now known that even preferences can be subject to change with brain damage or degradation. There is a fellow who got injured, badly, and suddenly *Poof* he was a pedophile. He had all the urges, everything. He was horrified by this and reported it to his doctors. They were able to find and balance out his brain chemically and if he takes his drugs *Poof* he's not anymore.

It's creepy. It's also been proven at this point that certain types of dementia can cause the same thing. Some old folks become pedophiles, probably the origin of the term 'Dirty old man'. There are even some who recommend that men over a certain age be watched closely for signs of developing pedophilia.

If things like that can happen in our brains from age or damage - imagine what else can differ from individual to individual just through the 'normal' range of behaviours etc.




On this we can entirely agree 100%.

Sadly, not everyone sees it that way.



Oh, I know. Yet there are those who want to stick the word "GOD" on the top of the flag in blue because of the 'One nation, under God' part of the pledge of allegiance.

Never mind that all that derives from an attempt to be different from the 'Godless Commies' back in 1950 and is not part of the original design of the country at all...




Only as regards ME, Joel. It's not a universal truth like gravity. I'm only speaking exclusively for myself. I have tried, from time to time, to believe. I have done the occasional spiritual quest and I come back to the same point time and again. I can't believe what folks are telling me to believe. I see the holes and cannot ignore them.

Maybe someday, I'll see something that allows me to believe but I fear that would have to be something concrete enough that it isn't really 'faith' anymore.

I didn't choose this - not in any way. And I cannot 'choose' to have faith as long as my mind works this way. Because deep down I would know I didn't believe and I don't go in for hypocrisy like that.

I can't speak for other folks - just for what I'm experiencing personally.




That's one definition of faith, I suppose, but isn't the generally accepted one more like belief without proof?

And I don't like atheists either. That's just faith of a different colour.



What you know of course, is what you believe to have happened (I recall the story). Yet, things like that have happened to others without God. REALLY strange things happen sometimes.

You have chosen to interpret it as intervention. Very well. I'm not saying you're wrong (for all I know you are entirely right) but it doesn't fly as proof to anyone outside yourself. It might not even fly to someone who had the same experience but simply interpreted it differently.

I don't know how I'd feel. I haven't been through something like that. So cannot comment on it other than to say that not everyone who has similar experiences attributes them to God. Which could mean you're wrong, or they're wrong, or you're both right (maybe God only gets his hands dirty sometimes for his own reasons?).




Well, recall that what I'm saying is that IF God were the mean spirited bastard some folks make him out to be then I'd choose the other side - and rightly too I think.

On the other hand, if others are right and God is more interested in the whole person rather than going all lawyery on someone, then that's fine with me. I can admire and respect that.



You rather lost me after that point.

Let me ask a rather straightforward question. An honest one - in your opinion, how could someone like me go about trying to accomplish faith? Is there a way that doesn't make one a hypocrite?

That's not an invite to preach or pray - it's much more serious than that.



Pfah. If there is Freewill than the Glorious things we do are because WE chose to do them. The credit goes to the man.

If we choose poorly the fault equally goes to the man.

Freewill means just that. We choose well, we deserve the cred, we choose badly, we deserve the cred for that too.

Otherwise the term is meaningless.