Note the plural.
If it were war, there'd be a state to invade and occupy. Ther'd be an indigenous populace to neutralize and pacify. There'd be battles between opposing armies, not one army hunting for random snipers while trying to avoid homemade bombs. Perhaps the biggest proof it's not a war is that if it were, when a belligerent act was committed against Americans by foreign SOLDIERS, they could be killed on the battlefield in self defense, captured and held as POWs or captured and tried for war crimes. Bush was clear from the beginning they aren't POWs, but "enemy combatants" (a phrase whose meaning his administration drastically altered from its already murky one. ) Too bad, really; as soldiers they would've been subject to military tribunals, but the administration wanted a free hand to do with them as they pleased, and thought that would give it to them. The prospect of the White House doing whatever they want to whoever they want on no evidence or even charge is yet another reason for me to insist on due process as firmly as Jefferson and Adams. If they wanted tribunals they should've asked for a declaration of war (and, to be fair, the Democratic Senate never should've authorized The War That Is Not a War, but there was an election in six months so, cowards they are, they did. )
No, Al Qaeda doesn't represent a nation, a region, a populace or even most of even one sect of one religion. It's a bunch of brainwashed murderers led by a wealthy murderer or two who's biggest problem with the Western presence in the Mid-East is we keep getting in their way (though they certainly don't mind us enriching them. ) The particular issues you cite, with which I'm quite familiar, aren't their MOTIVES, but their PRETEXT. Saudi Arabia isn't a secular state, but they're definitely one outside of bin Ladens control, and yes, it pisses him off a lot, and it's symptomatic: Pretty much every country bin Laden would like to dominate from behind the scenes as he did Afghanistan is either 1) an aggressively hostile Shiite state or 2) an American fiefdom. That doesn't elevate him to the democratically elected leader of ANY state. He's a lot closer to Capone than Castro; the latter wanted to rule Chicago like a king and for a while he did, but no one in the US government ever dignified that by acknowledging his legitimacy.
It's simply not a war. Not in name or in fact; we went far out of our way to avoid calling it a war even though that would've DRAMATICALLY expanded the Presidents authority and curtailed much of Congress'. Representing an ideology, even if you're joined in that by a relatively large number of people, does not, in itself, make you a soldier, nor your cause a war. Not in Waco, and not in Pakistan.
I can only refer once again to the Father of American Conservatism in the hopes that the tendency to repudiate all things liberal and embrace all things conservative might do some good for once:
"We find in the rules laid down by the greatest English judges... [that] we are to look upon it as more beneficial that many guilty persons should escape unpunished than one innocent person should suffer. The reason is because it is of more importance to [the] community that innocence should be protected than it is that guilt should be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in the world that all of them cannot be punished, and many times they happen in such a manner that it is not of much consequence to the public whether they are punished or not. But when innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'It is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such sentiment as this should take place in the mind of the subject there would be an end to all security whatsoever. " --John Adams, defending the British soldiers accused in the Boston Massacre
The rule of law rests on the integrity of law, and without that foundation there is only the anarchic law of the jungle.
This is a military struggle, between a nation and her allies and an army of religious extremists whose tactics include terrorism. alQaeda is an army, not a terrorist group. Unfortunately, they've been mislabeled.
This war is basically being fought because alQaeda and the other groups who adhere to the form of weaponized Islam that bin Laden & Co are peddling feel they have a religious and moral obligation to fight the U.S. for several reasons. They aren't killing cause they like to, they aren't killing because they're insane, they're killing because of issues such as (off the top of my head) U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, U.S. support for secular (and oppressive) regimes in Arab countries, U.S. support for Israel, and U.S. economic sanctions on Iraq in the 90's. It isn't organized crime, it's a war, and this trial proves that the people in charge of leading America during this war are definitely not in the right frame of mind.
This war is basically being fought because alQaeda and the other groups who adhere to the form of weaponized Islam that bin Laden & Co are peddling feel they have a religious and moral obligation to fight the U.S. for several reasons. They aren't killing cause they like to, they aren't killing because they're insane, they're killing because of issues such as (off the top of my head) U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, U.S. support for secular (and oppressive) regimes in Arab countries, U.S. support for Israel, and U.S. economic sanctions on Iraq in the 90's. It isn't organized crime, it's a war, and this trial proves that the people in charge of leading America during this war are definitely not in the right frame of mind.
If it were war, there'd be a state to invade and occupy. Ther'd be an indigenous populace to neutralize and pacify. There'd be battles between opposing armies, not one army hunting for random snipers while trying to avoid homemade bombs. Perhaps the biggest proof it's not a war is that if it were, when a belligerent act was committed against Americans by foreign SOLDIERS, they could be killed on the battlefield in self defense, captured and held as POWs or captured and tried for war crimes. Bush was clear from the beginning they aren't POWs, but "enemy combatants" (a phrase whose meaning his administration drastically altered from its already murky one. ) Too bad, really; as soldiers they would've been subject to military tribunals, but the administration wanted a free hand to do with them as they pleased, and thought that would give it to them. The prospect of the White House doing whatever they want to whoever they want on no evidence or even charge is yet another reason for me to insist on due process as firmly as Jefferson and Adams. If they wanted tribunals they should've asked for a declaration of war (and, to be fair, the Democratic Senate never should've authorized The War That Is Not a War, but there was an election in six months so, cowards they are, they did. )
No, Al Qaeda doesn't represent a nation, a region, a populace or even most of even one sect of one religion. It's a bunch of brainwashed murderers led by a wealthy murderer or two who's biggest problem with the Western presence in the Mid-East is we keep getting in their way (though they certainly don't mind us enriching them. ) The particular issues you cite, with which I'm quite familiar, aren't their MOTIVES, but their PRETEXT. Saudi Arabia isn't a secular state, but they're definitely one outside of bin Ladens control, and yes, it pisses him off a lot, and it's symptomatic: Pretty much every country bin Laden would like to dominate from behind the scenes as he did Afghanistan is either 1) an aggressively hostile Shiite state or 2) an American fiefdom. That doesn't elevate him to the democratically elected leader of ANY state. He's a lot closer to Capone than Castro; the latter wanted to rule Chicago like a king and for a while he did, but no one in the US government ever dignified that by acknowledging his legitimacy.
It's simply not a war. Not in name or in fact; we went far out of our way to avoid calling it a war even though that would've DRAMATICALLY expanded the Presidents authority and curtailed much of Congress'. Representing an ideology, even if you're joined in that by a relatively large number of people, does not, in itself, make you a soldier, nor your cause a war. Not in Waco, and not in Pakistan.
I can only refer once again to the Father of American Conservatism in the hopes that the tendency to repudiate all things liberal and embrace all things conservative might do some good for once:
"We find in the rules laid down by the greatest English judges... [that] we are to look upon it as more beneficial that many guilty persons should escape unpunished than one innocent person should suffer. The reason is because it is of more importance to [the] community that innocence should be protected than it is that guilt should be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in the world that all of them cannot be punished, and many times they happen in such a manner that it is not of much consequence to the public whether they are punished or not. But when innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'It is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such sentiment as this should take place in the mind of the subject there would be an end to all security whatsoever. " --John Adams, defending the British soldiers accused in the Boston Massacre
The rule of law rests on the integrity of law, and without that foundation there is only the anarchic law of the jungle.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden?
20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM
- 1063 Views
oO uhm, what?
20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM
- 546 Views
If they're tried INSIDE the US, then yes, they are entitled to due process.
20/11/2009 01:44:08 AM
- 460 Views
Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started.
20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM
- 571 Views
on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession.
20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM
- 568 Views
New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial
20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM
- 495 Views
If this trial were being held in any other country
20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM
- 518 Views
It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.
20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM
- 543 Views
It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended.
20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM
- 433 Views
Spare me the bullshit.
20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM
- 439 Views
I will if you will.
20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM
- 535 Views
No, you won't. You never will.
20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM
- 425 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem.
23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM
- 516 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow.
20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM
- 476 Views
Allow me to point out...
20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM
- 456 Views
That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group
20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM
- 497 Views
It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance.
20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM
- 440 Views
I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one
21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM
- 457 Views
Military struggles involve militaries.
20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM
- 619 Views
Once again, bullshit.
20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM
- 580 Views
This is wrong
20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM
- 485 Views
We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli.
23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM
- 536 Views
Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad...
22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM
- 604 Views
I understand your "jihadist narrative"
22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM
- 585 Views
No you don't
22/11/2009 11:16:18 PM
- 521 Views
Oh, so you know better than Army attorneys about Miranda rights?
22/11/2009 11:52:00 PM
- 561 Views
I can explain it to you right now if you want?
23/11/2009 08:21:48 AM
- 455 Views
Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
- 527 Views
Re: Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
24/11/2009 04:55:12 AM
- 661 Views
I'm glad that you will never be in a position where a decision you make can affect my life.
23/11/2009 12:27:35 AM
- 424 Views
Actually people of my thinking are already making decisions that affect your life.
23/11/2009 08:29:24 AM
- 558 Views
Please explain to me how military tribunals compromise my principles?
24/11/2009 02:54:18 AM
- 420 Views
And your little hyperbolic rant would make more sense if it were grounded in reality.
22/11/2009 11:47:17 PM
- 452 Views
Looks like we'll get a Not Guilty plea, and a defense focusing on condeming US foreign policy
23/11/2009 12:36:47 AM
- 677 Views
They'll publicly accuse us of tyranny and brutality in front of a jury and without our censorship.
23/11/2009 08:27:13 AM
- 580 Views
My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America.
24/11/2009 02:57:13 AM
- 501 Views
"My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America. "
24/11/2009 06:57:34 AM
- 500 Views
We've had Mohammed in custody for over 6 years...
23/11/2009 07:56:49 AM
- 523 Views
I've already responded to your absurd statements, but let me reiterate a few here
23/11/2009 02:59:09 PM
- 420 Views
And I've responded to yours
24/11/2009 04:57:58 AM
- 497 Views
It's not, at least for me, that we feel the civilian courts are inadequate
24/11/2009 05:28:51 AM
- 476 Views
Good analysis of the situation.
23/11/2009 08:17:01 AM
- 592 Views
It isn't about sending a message. It's about horrible war fighting strategy.
24/11/2009 02:59:31 AM
- 543 Views
No. It's about not using a horribly ineffective strategy just to send a message to terrorists.
24/11/2009 09:29:06 AM
- 464 Views
enemy combatants and terrorists
23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM
- 559 Views
They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists.
24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM
- 675 Views