Holy $@#*, who put these idiots in charge of a war? Oh yeah, that's right. We did. This is complete insanity, a purely political decision, with the only factor taken into consideration being "apologizing" for the Bush administration and "setting things right", with no thought of the consequences. This decision (trying enemy combatants while AT WAR in U.S. criminal courts) is so far beyond stupid that I'm having trouble coming up with the words. This, on top of the endless agonizing about the most politically helpful move on Afghanistan and the threat of "discussions about the seriousness of possible consequences" against Iran, is causing me to severely doubt the ability of this administration to tie their own shoes, let alone execute a war.
The decision to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a federal court in New York could go down as one of the most misguided in the history of U.S. jurisprudence. The reasons are numerous, but one in particular will have serious consequences on our ability to collect intelligence to prevent attacks against the U.S. at home and abroad.
The 9/11 attacks were not simply a crime. They were a catastrophic act of terrorism committed in violation of the laws of war. The FBI realized the attacks were unlike the day-to-day crimes committed in this country and categorized them differently under the bureau's traditional "Crime in the United States" publication for 2001.
The reason they are "different" is self-evident. Those responsible for Sept. 11, 2001, are no more criminals who belong in a civilian court than the fascists of Germany or Japan of World War II did. Indeed, the Nazi saboteurs of World War II captured on U.S. soil were tried in military commissions. Those fascists, like the leadership of al-Qaeda, literally declared war on us. For those who doubt we are at "war" with al-Qaeda, they need only look to the roughly 68,000 U.S. troops now committed to Afghanistan.
Nonsensical decision
Osama bin Laden, Mohammed and their al-Qaeda cohorts do not have the civilian constitutional right to remain silent, to have an attorney, to a speedy trial, to be judged by a jury of their peers and so on. By categorizing these men as mere criminals, we have incongruently tried to merge war-fighting tactics with the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence. On the one hand, we drop bombs on al-Qaeda using Predator drones and, on the other, we have to "Mirandize" them if captured. This is nonsensical.
What happens if bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, are captured overseas? They should be treated as unprivileged enemy belligerents, held and interrogated not for the purpose of building a civilian criminal case against them, but for the purpose of collecting intelligence in order to thwart future attacks. To achieve the latter may require us to engage in tactics, far short of waterboarding, that would nonetheless violate the constitutional rights of a traditional criminal defendant. This could result in the suppression of evidence and even the dismissal of cases. To avoid that from happening will hamstring our ability to collect intelligence and disrupt attacks.
Should location matter?
The Justice Department's reasoning for this decision is incoherent. On the one hand, it declares that those captured on the battlefield for attacks overseas, especially against military targets, will be handled largely through military commissions. It cites the example of Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, charged with masterminding the attack on the USS Cole. But Mohammed was captured in Pakistan, and he has confessed to attacking the Pentagon. If you attack and kill thousands of civilians and military personnel on U.S. soil in violation of the laws of war, you will be afforded civilian constitutional due process rights, but if you attack our warships overseas, you get a military commission? What if the Cole had been docked in San Diego when it was attacked?
Finally, if Bin Laden and Zawahri are simply wanted criminal fugitives, any use of military force against them might be a violation of due process, calling into question the legality of our war against al-Qaeda. But we tried to treat our fight with al-Qaeda as a purely law enforcement operation with the 1993 World Trade Center bombers, and it failed miserably in stopping future attacks.
Mohammed did not rob a bank, and al-Qaeda is not the mafia. It is an international terrorist organization and movement still openly at war with the people of the United States of America, whether we choose to recognize it or not.
And the article my subject line is referring to:
Leahy: No need to interrogate bin Laden
By Michael O'Brien - 11/19/09 10:32 AM ET
If the U.S. captures Osama bin Laden, there's no need to interrogate him, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee said Thursday.
Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), the chairman of that committee, said that arguments raised by Republican senators about whether bin Laden would be afforded Miranda rights if he were captured amount to a "red herring."
"The red herring that my friend [Sen.] Lindsey Graham [R-S.C.] was covering is not realistic," Leahy said during an appearance on "Washington Journal" on C-SPAN.
"For one thing, capturing Osama bin Laden — we've had enough on him, we don't need to interrogate him," Leahy added.
Graham had grilled Attorney General Eric Holder during a hearing on Capitol Hill on Wednesday on whether bin Laden should be afforded due process in courts if he were captured.
"The big problem I have is you're criminalizing the war, that if we caught bin Laden tomorrow, we have mixed theories and couldn't turn him over to the CIA, the FBI, military intelligence for an interrogation on the battlefield, because now you're saying he's subject to criminal court in the United States and you're confusing the people fighting this war," Graham said.
A senior Republican aide criticized Leahy, saying "it's a good thing they kicked him off the intel committee in the late 80’s."
On "Washington Journal," Leahy stuck up for Holder's decision to bring Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other detainees to New York for civilian trials.
"We're going to bring them back to New York and prosecute them," he said. "I think we ought to stand up and applaud that."
The decision to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a federal court in New York could go down as one of the most misguided in the history of U.S. jurisprudence. The reasons are numerous, but one in particular will have serious consequences on our ability to collect intelligence to prevent attacks against the U.S. at home and abroad.
The 9/11 attacks were not simply a crime. They were a catastrophic act of terrorism committed in violation of the laws of war. The FBI realized the attacks were unlike the day-to-day crimes committed in this country and categorized them differently under the bureau's traditional "Crime in the United States" publication for 2001.
The reason they are "different" is self-evident. Those responsible for Sept. 11, 2001, are no more criminals who belong in a civilian court than the fascists of Germany or Japan of World War II did. Indeed, the Nazi saboteurs of World War II captured on U.S. soil were tried in military commissions. Those fascists, like the leadership of al-Qaeda, literally declared war on us. For those who doubt we are at "war" with al-Qaeda, they need only look to the roughly 68,000 U.S. troops now committed to Afghanistan.
Nonsensical decision
Osama bin Laden, Mohammed and their al-Qaeda cohorts do not have the civilian constitutional right to remain silent, to have an attorney, to a speedy trial, to be judged by a jury of their peers and so on. By categorizing these men as mere criminals, we have incongruently tried to merge war-fighting tactics with the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence. On the one hand, we drop bombs on al-Qaeda using Predator drones and, on the other, we have to "Mirandize" them if captured. This is nonsensical.
What happens if bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, are captured overseas? They should be treated as unprivileged enemy belligerents, held and interrogated not for the purpose of building a civilian criminal case against them, but for the purpose of collecting intelligence in order to thwart future attacks. To achieve the latter may require us to engage in tactics, far short of waterboarding, that would nonetheless violate the constitutional rights of a traditional criminal defendant. This could result in the suppression of evidence and even the dismissal of cases. To avoid that from happening will hamstring our ability to collect intelligence and disrupt attacks.
Should location matter?
The Justice Department's reasoning for this decision is incoherent. On the one hand, it declares that those captured on the battlefield for attacks overseas, especially against military targets, will be handled largely through military commissions. It cites the example of Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, charged with masterminding the attack on the USS Cole. But Mohammed was captured in Pakistan, and he has confessed to attacking the Pentagon. If you attack and kill thousands of civilians and military personnel on U.S. soil in violation of the laws of war, you will be afforded civilian constitutional due process rights, but if you attack our warships overseas, you get a military commission? What if the Cole had been docked in San Diego when it was attacked?
Finally, if Bin Laden and Zawahri are simply wanted criminal fugitives, any use of military force against them might be a violation of due process, calling into question the legality of our war against al-Qaeda. But we tried to treat our fight with al-Qaeda as a purely law enforcement operation with the 1993 World Trade Center bombers, and it failed miserably in stopping future attacks.
Mohammed did not rob a bank, and al-Qaeda is not the mafia. It is an international terrorist organization and movement still openly at war with the people of the United States of America, whether we choose to recognize it or not.
And the article my subject line is referring to:
Leahy: No need to interrogate bin Laden
By Michael O'Brien - 11/19/09 10:32 AM ET
If the U.S. captures Osama bin Laden, there's no need to interrogate him, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee said Thursday.
Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), the chairman of that committee, said that arguments raised by Republican senators about whether bin Laden would be afforded Miranda rights if he were captured amount to a "red herring."
"The red herring that my friend [Sen.] Lindsey Graham [R-S.C.] was covering is not realistic," Leahy said during an appearance on "Washington Journal" on C-SPAN.
"For one thing, capturing Osama bin Laden — we've had enough on him, we don't need to interrogate him," Leahy added.
Graham had grilled Attorney General Eric Holder during a hearing on Capitol Hill on Wednesday on whether bin Laden should be afforded due process in courts if he were captured.
"The big problem I have is you're criminalizing the war, that if we caught bin Laden tomorrow, we have mixed theories and couldn't turn him over to the CIA, the FBI, military intelligence for an interrogation on the battlefield, because now you're saying he's subject to criminal court in the United States and you're confusing the people fighting this war," Graham said.
A senior Republican aide criticized Leahy, saying "it's a good thing they kicked him off the intel committee in the late 80’s."
On "Washington Journal," Leahy stuck up for Holder's decision to bring Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other detainees to New York for civilian trials.
"We're going to bring them back to New York and prosecute them," he said. "I think we ought to stand up and applaud that."
No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden?
20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM
- 1064 Views
oO uhm, what?
20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM
- 546 Views
If they're tried INSIDE the US, then yes, they are entitled to due process.
20/11/2009 01:44:08 AM
- 460 Views
Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started.
20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM
- 571 Views
on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession.
20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM
- 568 Views
New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial
20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM
- 496 Views
If this trial were being held in any other country
20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM
- 519 Views
It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.
20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM
- 543 Views
It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended.
20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM
- 433 Views
Spare me the bullshit.
20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM
- 439 Views
I will if you will.
20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM
- 536 Views
No, you won't. You never will.
20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM
- 426 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem.
23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM
- 516 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow.
20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM
- 476 Views
Allow me to point out...
20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM
- 456 Views
That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group
20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM
- 498 Views
It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance.
20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM
- 440 Views
I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one
21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM
- 458 Views
Military struggles involve militaries.
20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM
- 619 Views
Once again, bullshit.
20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM
- 580 Views
This is wrong
20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM
- 485 Views
We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli.
23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM
- 537 Views
Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad...
22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM
- 605 Views
I understand your "jihadist narrative"
22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM
- 585 Views
No you don't
22/11/2009 11:16:18 PM
- 521 Views
Oh, so you know better than Army attorneys about Miranda rights?
22/11/2009 11:52:00 PM
- 562 Views
I can explain it to you right now if you want?
23/11/2009 08:21:48 AM
- 455 Views
Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
- 527 Views
Re: Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
24/11/2009 04:55:12 AM
- 661 Views
I'm glad that you will never be in a position where a decision you make can affect my life.
23/11/2009 12:27:35 AM
- 424 Views
Actually people of my thinking are already making decisions that affect your life.
23/11/2009 08:29:24 AM
- 558 Views
Please explain to me how military tribunals compromise my principles?
24/11/2009 02:54:18 AM
- 421 Views
And your little hyperbolic rant would make more sense if it were grounded in reality.
22/11/2009 11:47:17 PM
- 452 Views
Looks like we'll get a Not Guilty plea, and a defense focusing on condeming US foreign policy
23/11/2009 12:36:47 AM
- 677 Views
They'll publicly accuse us of tyranny and brutality in front of a jury and without our censorship.
23/11/2009 08:27:13 AM
- 580 Views
My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America.
24/11/2009 02:57:13 AM
- 501 Views
"My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America. "
24/11/2009 06:57:34 AM
- 500 Views
We've had Mohammed in custody for over 6 years...
23/11/2009 07:56:49 AM
- 524 Views
I've already responded to your absurd statements, but let me reiterate a few here
23/11/2009 02:59:09 PM
- 420 Views
And I've responded to yours
24/11/2009 04:57:58 AM
- 498 Views
It's not, at least for me, that we feel the civilian courts are inadequate
24/11/2009 05:28:51 AM
- 476 Views
Good analysis of the situation.
23/11/2009 08:17:01 AM
- 592 Views
It isn't about sending a message. It's about horrible war fighting strategy.
24/11/2009 02:59:31 AM
- 545 Views
No. It's about not using a horribly ineffective strategy just to send a message to terrorists.
24/11/2009 09:29:06 AM
- 464 Views
enemy combatants and terrorists
23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM
- 560 Views
They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists.
24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM
- 675 Views