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Re: It has been said, and I understand what is being said... Sareitha Sedai Send a noteboard - 10/03/2017 07:58:57 PM

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View original postIn the case of transsexual or transgender individuals, they are allowed the same autonomy to choose treatment or not, because they aren't in danger of harming themselves or anyone else whether they stay in the body they were born in or not.

But where you and others say that they aren't "harming themselves or anyone else", I disagree. I see the surgery that they are doing as great harm to themselves. I see the ramifications of their decision having harm on those around them. And I see their requirement that society treat them as socially similar to the body that they now present as inauthentic. And I'm hardly alone in this assessment.


It is clear that the mental health profession finds that they are not harming themselves or anyone else, or they would be treating them differently. You are free to disagree, but they're the experts.

People choose to have surgeries that are not medically necessary for myriad reasons. And they're allowed that choice. So that's not a valid argument (that the surgery could cause them physical harm or be seen as physical harm).

It's trickier to say definitively whether they are or are not harming anyone else. It's clear they are not physically harming anyone else. That's probably sufficient. Emotional harm is awfully tough to prove and never black-and-white...Imagine a mildly or severely depressed parent of a young child. It would be much easier for a concerned 3rd party to prove that the parent's depression was physically harming the child (say the parent never feeds the child) than emotionally harming the child (through neglect, say...mommy never gets out of bed). In the case of physical harm, one would expect authorities to remove the child from the home and place him/her with somebody who will feed them (to protect him/her from harm) and require treatment of the depression as a condition for return. That's different from treating a person for depression against their will. In the case of the possible emotional harm (if proved), you also have to weigh whether the child would be better off (less emotionally harmed) if removed from the home, which won't always be true.

Your statement that you see "their requirement that society treat them as socially similar to the body that they now present as inauthentic" puzzles me. Can you clarify what you mean by that? You (or anyone else) seeing them as inauthentic should (and does) have absolutely no bearing on what is best for them and what the mental health profession has decided is best for them.

Prosthetic limbs are inauthentic. Is somebody wearing a prosthetic leg requiring you see them as a 2-legged person inauthentic?



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What I'm wondering is if anyone sees it from my perspective. That for each and every other mental health issue we have, we always regard their behavior/quarks/perceptions as what they are...not true. However for this one....we take their viewpoint as valid. Why the difference?

~Jeordam


You have said that a few times in this thread, but it's not true, you know It is demonstrably not true that this is the only "mental health issue" where treatment includes taking their viewpoint as valid. One other example I can think of is dementia/Alzheimer's Disease. We don't keep insisting to grandma that she better remember she's married and has grown children because that is THE TRUTH. Forcing the truth is seen as unnecessarily upsetting and worsening her condition, so everyone goes along based on the recommendation from the doctor that this is what's best for her. Some delusions and paranoia can also be treated this way. There are certainly others.

The fact that gender dysphoria is recognized as a diagnosable mental illness shows you that the profession knows that the person's perception is not "valid." By your own admission, the profession sees depressed thinking, obsessions, compulsions, etc. as disordered and to be treated. One of the ways available to them to treat this disordered thinking is to physically alter the brain chemistry through psychotropic medication. Physically altering the body of gender dysphoria patients accomplishes the same thing--removes the physical source of the disorder.

If you are from Betelgeuse, please have one of your Earth friends read what I've written before you respond. Or try concentrating harder.

"The trophy problem has become extreme."
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I have to say I'm very confused about what your question is... and I don't think it's just me. - 07/03/2017 12:04:27 AM 518 Views
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<3 *NM* - 07/03/2017 06:57:23 PM 242 Views
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Mind over body might've been more apt. I believe I did answer your question actually. - 07/03/2017 10:41:01 PM 578 Views
Let's be clear.... - 07/03/2017 11:17:02 PM 479 Views
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Well that's the crux of the topic isn't it.... - 08/03/2017 05:48:50 PM 426 Views
That takes us right back to body vs mind, doesn't it? - 08/03/2017 07:13:32 PM 476 Views
Well that would be the difference... - 08/03/2017 08:54:59 PM 528 Views
So do tell me what in fact the purpose of our discussion is, then? - 08/03/2017 09:40:09 PM 478 Views
What can I possibly say? - 09/03/2017 05:45:54 PM 465 Views
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That brings us all the way back around.... - 08/03/2017 09:05:40 PM 517 Views
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Two things... - 09/03/2017 05:50:32 PM 461 Views
you're missing a rather obvious difference, aren't you? - 08/03/2017 09:50:09 PM 492 Views
Yeah, Snoop was just saying the same. - 08/03/2017 10:14:41 PM 533 Views
Well now we are bridging a rather big gap.... - 09/03/2017 07:12:26 PM 511 Views
Re: Well now we are bridging a rather big gap.... - 09/03/2017 08:52:30 PM 592 Views
So two conversations now..... - 09/03/2017 09:39:55 PM 490 Views
Re: So two conversations now..... - 09/03/2017 10:23:39 PM 472 Views
And this is what you're overlooking.... - 09/03/2017 10:47:47 PM 507 Views
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So this is an interesting point..... - 09/03/2017 05:56:12 PM 495 Views
Sure about that? - 09/03/2017 08:53:14 PM 467 Views
It's a mater of persepctive.... - 09/03/2017 09:12:09 PM 494 Views
wrong - 09/03/2017 09:41:53 PM 422 Views
Sure. - 09/03/2017 09:57:48 PM 517 Views
sure, could be - 09/03/2017 11:56:31 PM 445 Views
I feel like this has been said several times already, in several ways - 10/03/2017 04:10:27 PM 479 Views
It has been said, and I understand what is being said... - 10/03/2017 06:01:06 PM 484 Views
Re: It has been said, and I understand what is being said... - 10/03/2017 07:58:57 PM 489 Views
I find your wording problematic and agenda driven. - 07/03/2017 11:58:03 PM 502 Views
I appolozie if I offended - 08/03/2017 06:18:41 PM 481 Views
no worries - 08/03/2017 06:36:10 PM 497 Views
Take your trigger warnings back to tumblr where they belong - 07/03/2017 12:21:05 PM 603 Views
*ha* - 07/03/2017 05:04:10 PM 514 Views
So I could self-identify - 08/03/2017 12:36:39 AM 427 Views
I read through this thread. - 10/03/2017 12:44:03 AM 643 Views

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