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Re: Obama did have a vision. He didn't really realize much of it, but still. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 01/07/2016 12:56:36 AM

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You mean force their government to deal with their southern neighbours. The Mexicans themselves constitute a rapidly declining share of the new illegal immigrants.
Ah yes, those rock-solid census numbers, based on self-reporting. That's the best way to count a group characterized by their commission of federal crimes - their willingness to identify themselves as such to the federal government!
But I wouldn't be so sure that all those Trump supporters realize and accept that 'Mexico will pay for the wall', just like almost everything else Trump has said about his foreign policy and the funding of his domestic policy proposals, is just him being a 'smart-ass'.
Your side of aisle had a good label for such people: useful idiots. Ours believe Mexico will pay for the wall, yours believe that if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.

Again with the 'no one cares'. How would you know that,

Where do you get off challenging my assertion of my group's views or feelings?
and secondly, how many of those people have an even remotely realistic idea of how painful, exactly, it would be - and to be clear when I say painful I mean for the country as a whole and its economy, not just the expelled people? Not that I claim to have such accurate information myself,
It doesn't stop you from not only making assumptions but also trying to criticize a policy on the basis of those uninformed assumptions.
but you would certainly better have it, and distribute it to all potential Trump voters, before saying that 'no one cares'.
Well, we have to pass it to find out what's in it!

Seriously though, illegal immigrants use our utilities and roads (ask a Californian how much fun rolling blackouts are), they enjoy our protections and freedoms, and they incur costs to the taxpayer when they are sick or injured (and come into this country without vaccinations) and occupy our emergency rooms. They take jobs that could allow American kids entry into the work force. Look at one small sphere of activity: Driving. Illegals drive without legitimate licenses, which means they did not receive proper training either, just a crash course on how to get by from their employer or Tio Pedro who has been illegally driving a truck for a few years. They are both less inclined to follow traffic regulations, being members of a group selected for refusal to obey our regulations, and more likely to be ignorant of the entirety of such laws. As such, they create hazards on the roads, and cause accidents, from which they almost always flee the scene. But they aren't insured anyway, and they don't bother to pay traffic tickets or show up in court, whether for their violations or small claims, so I suppose it doesn't really matter if they don't cooperate with the police taking a report...not that they need to flee, since even when the cops catch an illegal immigrant, driving an unregistered vehicle without insurance or a drivers' license, they can't do anything about it other than issue him tickets and trust that he'll show up for court. The punishment for such defiance is to have one's license suspended, but he doesn't have a real license to begin with! There might eventually be a warrant out for his arrest, but the first few times he's caught, the court that issued the warrant will order him released on his own recognizance if they lack the resources to transport him to jail, and the typically low bail set for such minor non-violent offenses isn't worth the bother. And when and if they do manage to pin him down and get him into court, and get a guilty verdict, his free ACLU or La Raza lawyer will appeal on the grounds that he was never expressly informed in his native dialect of Spanish of his right to contact the Mexican consulate, or some other linguistic shortcoming. Just redeploy the troops stationed on the border of another third world country like North Korea, and having them patrol would be cheap at any price.


That said, of course it would be possible as you say to police the border better and send back more illegal immigrants, without ruining the American economy.

How would the removal of people who undercut American labor, take services without paying taxes, and impose costs through their unassimilated behavior ruin the economy? We did just fine once we started having to pay black people money, it couldn't hurt to start paying white and black people Mexican wages. As long as there is an unemployed English speaker in this country, there are too many illegals.
But in a political environment where voters take every opportunity to express their frustration about lying politicians, I still can't see it as a good thing to exceed even the usual political standards, even Obama's standards if you will, of promising more than you can ever deliver, the way Trump does on immigration and on everything else. I do not think that most of these voters are as smart as you and Tom, and as capable of building up realistic expectations for themselves of what Trump would and would not be able to do.
Even if Trump is lying, he at least shows he gets what people want to hear. If he doesn't deliver on immigration reform, and loses reelection or a mid-term election (which some experts credibly assert is what happened with Bush; support for the "War on Terror" didn't fade much between 04 & 06, but his amnesty attempts had a definite effect on his performance ratings), it might send a message to other politicians. If we can get a guy elected, who distinguished himself through nothing other than calling a number of PC-protected spades spades, and promising to turn off the leaky faucet of immigration, it might convince the rest of the politicians that immigration is a winning issue, regardless of how many well-heeled donors want to import a slave class to pick their crops and watch their children.
Trump does stand out among either Democrats or Republicans in terms of the outlandishness and absurdity of his proposals - while, paradoxically, attracting those voters who are the most angry about underdelivering, lying politicians. Hard to see how he can ever be anything but an even bigger disappointment that will anger them even more.
I'm sorry, what's the downside here?
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Re: Obama did have a vision. He didn't really realize much of it, but still. - 01/07/2016 12:56:36 AM 607 Views
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