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I'm going to try to shorten and summarize this a bit... Legolas Send a noteboard - 28/06/2015 11:21:28 PM

I think on several points we had a fruitful discussion, and I found much less to argue with in what you say once you stopped talking about the events of two thousand years ago. Also on the issue of the Palestinians indeed being difficult "guests" in many regards, I can't blame the Jordanians for "Black September" and all that.

The only point I really want to dispute (obviously that doesn't mean I agree with everything else, but agree to disagree at least) is your overgeneralizations about Palestinians. I'd recommend the works of recent Israeli historians like Benny Morris or Avi Shlaim - your "Palestinians WHO DID NOT REFUSE could have lived as full citizens in any part of Israel at any time, and still can" line really doesn't make much sense. The Palestinian refugees, as Morris so aptly analyzed, left for a number of different reasons, often overlapping; many were essentially forced to leave, or directly fleeing war like people do in any conflict, not being given any option to stay put in peace. Some others did get that choice, but obviously they couldn't know beforehand what the consequences of fleeing would be. And often it was really just a mess with conflicting impulses on all sides - the Jewish mayor of Haifa famously cried when his pleas to the Palestinian representatives to have their people stay put proved ineffective, but all throughout that meeting the Haganah's mortars were pounding away at civilian targets to keep the pressure up and the exodus going. And then afterwards, well, once any Palestinian was out of the country, be it voluntarily or involuntarily, returning to live under Israeli rule was never an option.

I don't pretend to have all the answers on how to solve this, and yes, Gaza is a problem what with being non-contiguous to the West Bank and just too tiny and densely populated to be viable on its own. But Egypt doesn't want it and they don't want Egypt. Jordan doesn't want the West Bank, nor does it want them - part of the reason in fact has to do with the points you correctly made about the Palestinians coming dangerously close to hijacking the Jordanian state. The non-Palestinian Jordanians wouldn't risk taking in the West Bank and being instantly outnumbered and outvoted in their own country, any more than Israel would. So yes, I'm willing to listen to alternatives, but I still don't see anything better than a Palestinian state including both the West Bank and Gaza (with some settlements becoming permanently Israeli, with compensations elsewhere).

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Those morons in Gaza (i.e., Hamas) are at it again - - 18/07/2014 04:02:57 PM 1152 Views
If by awesome you mean execrable, then yes, you're right. - 18/07/2014 11:45:53 PM 655 Views
Sounds like someone doesn't like jews! - 19/07/2014 04:24:41 AM 587 Views
It's funny you should say that. - 19/07/2014 09:36:57 AM 668 Views
your criticism would be better applied to Palestine supporters - 19/07/2014 11:50:37 AM 568 Views
My criticism IS also applied to Palestine supporters. It's not an either/or deal. - 19/07/2014 09:03:51 PM 598 Views
Agreed on that much, certainly. - 23/07/2014 03:05:22 AM 723 Views
Well, look who's back in the game! - 23/07/2014 07:44:45 PM 822 Views
Haltingly.... - 07/08/2014 03:41:06 AM 647 Views
The only good thing about ancient interminable wars is that--more-- - 13/06/2015 11:40:48 PM 502 Views
Oh lord. - 22/06/2015 10:08:22 PM 571 Views
"'Dialing for Dollars' is looking for me" - 24/06/2015 04:48:51 AM 644 Views
At the risk of prompting another long ramble, I've no idea what that reference is to. - 24/06/2015 10:39:42 PM 530 Views
"Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz?!" - 26/06/2015 12:41:48 PM 505 Views
I'm going to try to shorten and summarize this a bit... - 28/06/2015 11:21:28 PM 846 Views
I couldn't help but overhear... - 19/07/2014 01:13:01 PM 642 Views
Good, I was hoping you'd drop by! - 19/07/2014 08:33:44 PM 756 Views
I strongly beg to differ with your position re: Hamas - 26/07/2014 04:25:54 PM 522 Views
Sorry, I don't see that. - 26/07/2014 08:57:08 PM 609 Views
I guess if you believe the lies of Hamas your position makes sense. - 27/07/2014 03:20:03 PM 555 Views
+1 - 27/07/2014 04:00:05 PM 626 Views
I certainly don't believe everything they say, no. - 27/07/2014 06:43:51 PM 633 Views
the carrot and stick is somewhat apt, although israel should have given way more carrots to date - 22/07/2014 08:57:13 PM 656 Views
So Israel should back the least radical Palestinian faction & construct Palestinian infrastructure? - 23/07/2014 04:51:19 AM 616 Views
yes - 23/07/2014 05:04:58 PM 768 Views
I pretty much agree with everything you said. - 24/07/2014 09:46:22 AM 740 Views
Why do you hate America? - 23/07/2014 02:29:24 AM 622 Views
Bottom line - stop lobbing missles into Israel and the problem is solved. - 28/07/2014 03:35:46 AM 542 Views
It's a circle of violence. Both sides are the villian. - 31/07/2014 03:50:52 AM 658 Views

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