Active Users:1225 Time:22/11/2024 03:48:09 PM
You assume that the Ukraine's borders should be inviolate. Tom Send a noteboard - 09/03/2014 05:56:45 PM

My starting point is that 1991 was a messy collapse that left borders in need of review, in the Ukraine first and foremost (well, and Belarus really shouldn't be an independent country at all). The territorial disputes that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union do not make it a case of "Russia taking a bite out of their neighbor's territory". It's more a question of why the territory isn't Russian to begin with.

The US, as most nations supporting the status quo in the world, refuses to accept any redrawing of borders if the US doesn't have a hand in that redrawing (e.g., Kosovo). There was no legitimacy to our actions in Serbia and no legitimacy to creating a nation of Kosovo (especially considering it would have been better to give it to Albania, rather than create yet another economic sinkhole postage stamp nation).

The US policy is based on the notion that it was Germany's territorial disputes over ethnic Germans that led to World War II. This is misguided. The overwhelming majority of Germans wanted to see the abrupt and arbitrary borders of 1919 redrawn. Wilhelmine officials agreed with the Nazis on that point, and it was likely that a different social order (run, say, by the DVP) would have done the same thing.

The tension created between revisionist powers and status quo powers is a very dangerous one, and the less the US tries to enforce the status quo, the better off it will be for us.


View original post
You are still ignoring the fact the assurances were made the US and Russia to Ukraine so the actions of the US should in no way invalidate the assurances both countries made to honor the borders of Ukraine. As to why Russia can’t act to protect their national interest that answer to that is by your logic any time a country can come with an argument that their national interest are threatened they can just take a bite out of their neighbors territory.
You have to admit how shallow the argument that that they are just protecting their base is and it sad that we keep hearing it. The base was never threatened so an invasion was not required to protect it. As to the safety of the Russian citizens they do have a valid interest they and if they had sent in observers to protect their citizens that argument might hold up but that isn’t what happened. The Russians have seized complete control and are in the process of illegally seizing a portion of their neighbor’s territory. In none of the examples you stated did the US end up with expanded borders. Using Kant’s categorical imperative would you be willing to accept the argument that believing some of your citizens that you believe might be threatened is justification to invade and seize territory from your neighbors?
As for the mysterious Olga who may or may not have evidence that protesters killed their own people I say it is irrelevant. I neither support not oppose the goals of the protesters but I do support the rights of Ukraine to their national borders and I strongly Russia’s use of this crisis as an excuse to steal territory from their smaller neighbors. The Russian people seem to be wonderful people with a deep and rich culture but their governments is run by thugs and thieves.


Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
Reply to message
Don't Make me Laugh, Mr. Obama - 01/03/2014 03:14:50 AM 1391 Views
i like obama and even i think that was dumb of him. *NM* - 01/03/2014 05:24:39 AM 484 Views
yep yep. why do you hate on Kerry, though ? *NM* - 01/03/2014 08:11:52 AM 393 Views
He's a useless asshat. *NM* - 01/03/2014 04:14:54 PM 396 Views
He's not the only lame duck in this, though. - 01/03/2014 05:41:01 PM 911 Views
It's a little more complicated than that, I think. - 01/03/2014 07:42:20 PM 764 Views
It's always more complicated... - 01/03/2014 08:57:54 PM 757 Views
Yes yes yes. This. - 01/03/2014 09:11:19 PM 708 Views
Well, we split on that then - I most certainly do not support such an annexation. - 01/03/2014 10:25:48 PM 703 Views
Any reason you keep misspelling Sevastopol? - 02/03/2014 12:52:01 AM 893 Views
You write "the Ukraine", while calling me old-fashioned? - 02/03/2014 01:57:58 AM 763 Views
Yes. Dropping "the" is an anti-Russian move. It will always be the Ukraine. - 02/03/2014 02:58:32 AM 770 Views
Just because there's an article in Russian doesn't mean there has to be one in English. - 02/03/2014 11:21:25 AM 714 Views
I say the Sudan and the Congo. - 02/03/2014 02:17:33 PM 762 Views
You do? Why? - 02/03/2014 03:21:56 PM 845 Views
its going to be hard to find support from the West - 01/03/2014 06:37:15 PM 693 Views
Obama is weak and is viewed as a joke by most of the world. - 03/03/2014 04:12:25 PM 646 Views
Don't worry, not as much as the ape before him *NM* - 04/03/2014 03:23:14 PM 424 Views
So what's your plan of action? - 03/03/2014 11:25:59 PM 717 Views
My plan of action is to let Putin have Ukraine. We have no interests there. *NM* - 04/03/2014 01:29:45 AM 433 Views
Ehem. Why are you being anti-Russian? ;-) - 04/03/2014 01:25:37 PM 744 Views
Of course we do - 04/03/2014 04:57:09 PM 739 Views
Wrong. - 04/03/2014 06:04:31 PM 653 Views
that ignores the point - 06/03/2014 02:01:09 PM 894 Views
No, it doesn't. - 06/03/2014 02:57:16 PM 679 Views
Re: No, it doesn't. - 06/03/2014 06:22:32 PM 740 Views
Yes, the US violated the agreement. - 06/03/2014 07:27:23 PM 791 Views
I have answered your question but you have still refused to answer my point - 07/03/2014 01:48:53 PM 723 Views
You assume that the Ukraine's borders should be inviolate. - 09/03/2014 05:56:45 PM 725 Views
Russia signed an agreement to not violate those borders - 10/03/2014 12:18:37 PM 688 Views
Oh, and now the West is talking about $15 billion in loans for Ukraine. - 05/03/2014 11:41:12 PM 684 Views
And you see that as the same thing as sending in troops? - 06/03/2014 01:37:28 PM 688 Views
I think you've listened to too much propaganda from the 1990s. - 06/03/2014 03:06:18 PM 655 Views
More like the 80s - 07/03/2014 01:50:43 PM 700 Views
So I guess traveling to Russia extensively is of no value. - 09/03/2014 05:58:00 PM 644 Views
in this case no it doesn't. - 10/03/2014 12:20:13 PM 670 Views
The junk they used in Chechnya was laughable... - 16/03/2014 01:51:28 AM 837 Views
Its a great time to throw some missiles in Poland - 04/03/2014 03:43:24 AM 737 Views
Call me crazy, but I like this idea! - 04/03/2014 12:31:07 PM 800 Views
There are no longer two super powers *NM* - 04/03/2014 04:40:16 PM 391 Views
Under Obama, it would seem there are none. *NM* - 04/03/2014 06:15:27 PM 375 Views
at Poland *NM* - 04/03/2014 08:09:14 PM 379 Views
In case you're not familiar with BMD - 04/03/2014 11:13:06 PM 780 Views
I know what you're talking about, I was just kidding around *NM* - 04/03/2014 11:41:20 PM 407 Views
*NM* - 05/03/2014 12:38:54 AM 400 Views
*NM* - 05/03/2014 01:00:57 AM 382 Views
Ron Paul, interestingly enough, agrees with me. - 04/03/2014 02:38:44 PM 695 Views

Reply to Message