Active Users:1126 Time:22/11/2024 08:00:04 PM
Um, how'd you get that out of my remarks? Isaac Send a noteboard - 19/07/2013 08:48:09 PM

If logic says something is more likely than not, it should be considered the more likely than not to be true unless evidence indicates otherwise. I didn't say shit about it being the only possible outcome. To the contrary, I am pointing out that for it not to be true some factor would have to seriously alter the rate of conviction compared to the rate of crime, and it lies on you to suggest and defend what that might be. If you can not do so with a reasonable degree of certainty then most logical inference remains the presumed correct one, or if reasonably challenged but insufficiently, the most likely one. The Big Bang Theory has not been proven, we operate under the assumption it is true.


View original post

View original post
View original postYou are going to have to prove your assertion that blacks commit crime at higher rates than other races. Because they definitely get arrested and incarcerated at higher rates, but that does not automatically correlate to actually committing more crime in general.


View original postThe assumption that conviction rates by a demographic match actual criminal acts by that demographic is the Occam's Razor outcome, and thus since it by definition can't be proven is either way automatically is the one assumed to be most likely true without evidence indicating otherwise. There is good evidence to indicate black males accused of crimes are convicted more often then others accused of crimes but I've never seen anything credible to indicate the rate is so high as to close that gap, and Occam's Razor rules in absence of that, in this case that black males commit more violent crimes then other racial/gender demographic groups. Discard that and you must essentially discard all other criminal demographics, including that men re more likely to commit rape then women, because the same logic applies.


View original postMost rapes are committed by men is unprovable, or at least not practically provable currently. But it is a logical inference of most convicted rapists being males and of most claims of rape accusing males of perpetuating them. It is not practically provable, but many things aren't and yet must still be discussed. I can't prove that anyone will die of old age in the next year, but I can strongly support that conclusion.




View original postWhites are statistically arrested more often than blacks in Florida (since we have been discussing Florida all this time) for a large majority of crimes committed. This is the raw total number of arrests and not as a function of their respective population distribution. However, we are supposed to assume that the high conviction rates are due to blacks committing these crimes in such higher numbers than whites that, by nature, blacks must be some sort of criminal race. Florida's statistics on numbers of arrests made (which I've linked below) bears this out -- that whites are typically arrested roughly the same or more often than blacks for a large number of crimes.

Well you and the others might be referring to Florida, I was not, I was referring to the US. Now, you fail test number one, you have claimed that crimes committed and conviction rates don't match up well, yet your proof is of arrests. Not crimes committed, not convictions, but arrests. There are crimes, some are never reported, of those some never have enough evidence for an arrest, some do not result in charges, some of those do not pass muster to a grand jury, and of those some never result in a conviction, nor is a conviction absolute proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person committed that crime. You're attempting to argue that conviction rate compared to crime rate is a flawed comparison and one flawed by roughly an entire order of magnitude, yet you already jump to the level of arrest.

Now that said - and I can make this argument as I am claiming that crime rates and criminal convictions are strongly correlated - of the 14 years of arrest data you sent me, 1998-2011, where people are broken up by 4 categories, white, black, oriental, and Indian (presumably native American) and presumably Hispanic as White, only in 3 of those 14 years did the arrest by murder have fewer blacks then whites. 1998, 1999, and 2001. And in those cases it was 415-388, 390-347, and 359-345 respectively. Now, again, this was arrest data, what though was the 2000 Census for Florida, the most applicable to those years? Black, 14.6%, White, 78.0%, Indian 0.3%, Asian 1.7%, the other 5.4% being something of a wild card to compare to our criminal data you found. What does this tell us? It tell us that for murder, in those years, an individual black person was rougher 5 times more likely to be arrested for murder. This trend appears to continue, as while black murder arrests have risen, being that majority every year since 2001, the black population now reported at 16.6%, roughly matching to the rise. That's all the data tells us explicitly. Now if you look at all total tracked arrest one finds that the average has blacks at about 1 in 3 of those, roughly double their population representation.

One cannot say, as the data listed does not say, what the percentage of those committed by black males are, themselves safely assumed to be half or 7-8% of the Floridian population, but consider that men trounce women in arrests in every single field, even Prostitution arrests to my surprise, that it probably weight even higher if one is comparing black males to the general population and further younger black males. Note that that is something I am inferring as the data doesn't allow that to be shown directly. You may make the claim that my claim that old white women are rarely arrested for crimes and thus probably don't commit many of them is unproven, racist, sexist, and ageist but there certainly is an impressive amount of data indicating that is very probable.

My claim is very simple, of the reported crimes arrests will loosely, though not perfectly, match up to crimes committed and that there is insufficient evidence to indicate that mismatch could extend to causing 7-8% of the population (probably more like 3% after removing age) to be arrested for roughly 1/3rd of crimes and about half of the violent crimes yet not have committed a disproportionately high number of them. That whites are arrested more often is fairly silly, they are 4 in 5 of the populace, that they aren't ahead across the board by a factor of 4-1 is what is relevant. Asians should not be considered super law-abiding because they make up about .5% of all arrests, they should be viewed only as making up .5% of arrests as 1.7% of the populace.


View original postSo then we need to ask, why are blacks more likely to not only be convicted, but to be thought of as more likely to commit crimes? Certainly, as a percentage of population, blacks are statistically more likely to commit certain crimes than whites (notably robbery more than others). However, given that more whites are arrested by raw total, and that blacks are typically given harsher sentences for the same crimes, and that blacks are typically convicted at higher rates in general, I don't think you can simply throw up your hands, claim Occam's Razor precludes drawing any conclusions and call it a day.

The data you attached did not, that I saw (it is a Friday and I'm short on coffee so I could be wrong) ever mention the word conviction one, single, solitary time. I am th one arguing that conviction rates roughly match arrests rate and crime rates, not you. If you want to compare arrest rates to conviction rates then you must provide that data, ditto sentencing rates. Especially with me of all people, I'm not exactly known around here for being relaxed about citations and casual interpretation of data.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Reply to message
Okay, how can you use the Trayvon Martin case AGAINST the stand-your-ground laws? - 17/07/2013 10:15:55 PM 995 Views
You forgot to mention that Zimmerman didn't actaully use a stand your ground defense *NM* - 18/07/2013 02:03:51 AM 327 Views
the judge included it in the instructions to the jury - 19/07/2013 04:37:43 AM 552 Views
I love the let me say my piece then end the convesation tactic - 19/07/2013 11:50:02 AM 538 Views
Sources - 19/07/2013 12:35:39 PM 660 Views
so she did - 19/07/2013 01:08:08 PM 527 Views
um, when did the collegiate sports organization get involved in politics? - 18/07/2013 08:17:24 PM 917 Views
I imagine he meant to type NAACP. *NM* - 18/07/2013 08:25:26 PM 270 Views
It's a combination of even more guns in circulation and no duty to retreat if you feel threatened - 18/07/2013 09:13:47 PM 515 Views
blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate because they commit crime at a higher rate - 19/07/2013 04:31:06 AM 542 Views
[citation needed] - 19/07/2013 06:12:04 PM 482 Views
Don't be tedious, such a claim is unprovable but also the most logical inference - 19/07/2013 07:10:22 PM 544 Views
If logic says so, then obviously that must be the only course of action possible.... - 19/07/2013 07:44:44 PM 626 Views
Um, how'd you get that out of my remarks? - 19/07/2013 08:48:09 PM 510 Views
Honestly, I feel like we are getting into some dangerous territory here - 24/07/2013 06:25:15 PM 588 Views
I wonder what we can call the racism version of Godwinning. - 24/07/2013 07:01:20 PM 512 Views
Reductio ad Racism maybe? *NM* - 24/07/2013 08:16:28 PM 240 Views
We? I don't feel I'm in dangerous territory at all - 24/07/2013 08:10:24 PM 456 Views
lets look at your numbers becuase they are interesting - 20/07/2013 03:25:31 PM 510 Views

Reply to Message