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I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice Jay Sherman Send a noteboard - 17/07/2013 10:34:38 PM

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The issue comes back to Reasonable Doubt ultimately anyway. That's why from a pragmatic perspective the alternate burdens of proof play a lesser known role when people discuss self-defense, etc. There's intentionally no probability attached to these things, except preponderance of evidence which one could say 50%+, at least for only two realistic scenarios. But the 'better 10 guilty... 1 innocent' does attach a vague ballpark to reasonable doubt, 90%+, and that sort of damages 50%+ for two opposing scenarios because in effect you don't need 50%+ that it was self-defense, you need 10%+ of self-defense to establish its no longer 90%+ to be guilty.

And that's what it comes down to, we've decided that people don't go to prison or the chair unless it is 90%+ and that's all the defense needs. You may feel self-defense should require a lower bar, a partial shifting of the burden, but its the degree to which someone needs to prove that which really matters. No state has self-defense dialed up so high zero justification beyond the claim is needed, nor any so low that proof by the defendant needs to be beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're essentially arguing is that you object to the 'better 10 men' aspect of things. Nothing wrong there, it is a statement much easier to say as a theoretical then swallow in application since it means swallowing someone you think is 89% likely to be guilty being back out on the streets. And when you throw in recidivism rates, one would have to contemplate that if 1 in 2 murderers will do it again then for every one innocent man in prison for murder we essentially killed 5 people from not putting those 10 behind bars.

There's no getting around it though, if you feel 'more likely than not' is the proper standard for a self-defense case, you're saying its okay to sentence someone for murder if there's a 49% chance they had self-defense. So again, while self-defense does require an affirmative defense much of the time, the level is essentially whatever is needed to make it reasonable doubt.


I understand the entirety of a jury trial rests on the concept of reasonable doubt. And I do believe that having to prove the guilt of the accused is the state's duty. However, I also believe that if lethal force for self-defense is claimed, it should be on the defendant to justify their claim. I will stand by that rationale, even moreso in light of the Zimmerman trial, because I think the taking of another life is something that should require more thought and effort than simply making a statement to police and refusing to testify at trial. If you or I kill someone fearing for our lives, it should be on us to prove that the situation warranted such a deep fear that deadly force was necessary. I do not think that "I was losing a fight I started" is a good enough reason to use deadly force, except -- as pointed out previously -- in the rare event that the fight flipped sides to the point that there was (a) some effort to try to remove oneself from the conflict and (b) the other person refuses to allow a retreat.


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Now in terms of intentionally murdering someone with self-defense in mind, that's much harder than it sounds like. There's no dispute who did the killing, and a SD claim has to be made pretty early on. So the investigators don't need to jump any hurdles to investigate the accused nor split focus to other scenarios. They will be digging around for everything, internet records of you googling self-defense laws in recent months for instance. Emails or witnesses establishing you knew the man, etc, and had a hostile relationship. They're probably going to find something unless you didn't know the guy or were very careful. In either case it is a hell of a lot easier to kill them and not stick around to claim SD. We don't get a lot of bogus SD claims attached to prolonged preparations for the simple reason that anyone that cautious and dedicated is likely to try a safer route. Upping the burden on the defendant to prove it was self-defense is really very unlikely to cut down on murders.

I would argue that, if the investigators perform a thorough investigation into the claims and fully collect all forensic data and statements at the time of the commission of the crime, a self-defense claim should be fairly easy to justify. I know you do not want to revisit the Zimmerman case, but I will use it as an example of how not to investigate a crime, because the police never checked Martin's phone record to see if he was on his mobile at the time of the altercation. It took the person Martin was speaking to to come forward before anyone realized there was another witness to the crime. If the police investigators cannot do their job in a thorough manner, then they are basically conceding that there is little they can do to determine the guilt or innocence of the accused and are simply taking him/her at their word that their version is not only accurate but truthful enough to warrant no further action.

The police are only human, but in the investigation phase, if there is any hint of a possible crime committed there should be a thorough investigation completed to determine if charges should be filed. Most seem to agree it was not done in this specific case, and in many other cases there are plenty of defendants who are either wrongly accused or wrongly convicted because of a botched or corrupt investigation. I don't think the human element can ever be removed, but I also don't think a crime as severe as a potential murder should be swept under the rug simply because the defendant gave a statement that claims lethal self-defense was necessary.


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You should try it some time, I've had to help draft a lot of ordinance and such over the recent years, especially of late, and its changed my perspective a lot. It hammers home that law often requires specificity and that criticism of law is best done the same.

I once took a summer workshop when I was in high school which put us in the positions of pretending to be state legislators. I'd much rather watch paint dry, thanks. I do know how the creation of laws works and the issue of unintended consequences. However, the claim I was trying to make still stands: when a verdict is perceived to be unjustly reached through a fair process, the laws which created the outcome should be revisited and rewritten so that a person who commits a crime can be properly brought to justice rather than simply acquitted because the law as written does not fit the crime they are accused of. I strongly believe that we should not be putting innocents in prison, but at the same time I also strongly believe that when the evidence points to a criminal conviction, that conviction should be able to be reached without confusion by the jury.



View original postAlso you're bringing up Zimmerman/Martin again, I'm not just telling you that you shouldn't need to, I'm telling you that it damages your entire argument to rely on that. You're essentially announcing in 40-foot high flaming letters that you want the law to have resulted in a guilty conviction in this case rather than really considering the law in general terms. And when law gets written up that way it usually results in even greater unfairness to others down the road.

I agree with you on the greater point that writing laws specifically to address one instance of a criminal case is terrible policy. It results in policies like having to take shoes off at the airport because one person tried to smuggle explosives in their shoe, but yet -- thankfully -- underwear is still ok to have under one's clothes rather than stripping naked to board an airplane after someone tried to smuggle explosives in their underwear. Still, the trial is useful to illustrate the point of why I think the law should be altered but I will do my best to try to speak in general terms.


View original postThat's actually fairly irrelevant of course, you objected to Florida law on SD before you read it, basically nuking the notion that you found the law in of itself flawed but rather just objected to the law based on the outcome of the case differing from what you wanted. Not a point for objectivity, especially when you were, and remain, unable to really put into words your objection to the letter of the law.

I will try to make this the last reference to the case in our legal discussion, because I really want to make this point:
From the beginning I have objected to the interpretation of self-defense as offered by the jury in the Zimmerman case because the jury seems to have never considered that both men had a right to self-defense. The fact that I did not initially research the letter of the law is beside the point, because my main concern is that the law was never applied fairly. I realize that Trayvon Martin was not on trial and can never be on trial since he is dead, but this specific case had "manslaughter" written all over it from the beginning. But now that the jury has spoken, I am trying to come to terms with the fact that a series of botched legal processes has resulted in a guilty (as I see it) man walking free. This is the way the jury process works, but it does not make it any easier to reconcile with how I perceive justice to be served.

Part of my interest in the trial was my fervent hope that a young black man could be seen as a person with every right to be walking home from the store without being thought of as a thug or criminal, with his own right to defend himself against an aggressor who has actively pursued him for no good reason. What I got instead was a sloppy police investigation and a prosecution which failed to bring the salient points of the conflict and instead relied upon the how instead of the why. Nothing in the written law can change a terrible prosecuting attorney from failing at trial, but I think as a non-lawyer I probably could have come up with a better series of witnesses and arguments to get a conviction than the prosecution did.

It comes out today that the jury instructions of the state of Florida has a line which reads "an aggressor cannot claim self-defense and that a person who aggressively follows another person is an aggressor." The defense successfully argued that this language should not be included with the jury instructions, and the judge allowed their argument to stand. That one line is the entirety of the prosecution's argument against Zimmerman -- that he actively pursued Martin and caused his death. That was the whole reason for the outrage against the verdict, because it was obvious to everyone involved that Zimmerman made choices which resulted in him being the aggressor. An aggressor, by law, cannot claim self-defense. This is why I argue that the definition of "aggressor" needs to be made more clear, but I do not have the time or inclination to rewrite Florida's laws for them, so I suppose the entire exercise is moot...


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Everybody lies, and people often say untrue things they believe are true even when they clearly contradict other things they're claiming. Perjury is - with good reason - tricky to prove. Eye witnesses to events, especially ones involved in them, routinely not only remember things inaccurately but remember things they want to be true, and the more they replay it the less accurate that memory becomes. This is very true of traumatic events and especially of ones where your own actions are under judgment. I've known people who shot enemies in blatant justified circumstances but before long were sick with grief and uncertainty over it and rapidly had their own version of events mutate from what others witnessed to be more guilty. I've known others who totally fucked up in a battle and before long had rewritten events to include things that justified it that didn't happen but which they truly believed did and hell I've seen others involved rewrite their own memories to be truly convinced it did. People make lousy witnesses, especially for almost any occasion we need good ones.

On any criminal matter he said she said generally results in a not guilty if that's all there is. It doesn't matter what the crime was, shoplifting or rape or murder. Now you keep talking about justification but you seem to keep ignoring that the need to justify a killing is not under discussion, its already there quite firmly. Once it has been established you've killed someone you must explain why, if you can. Inability to do so, at all or insufficiently doesn't conclude the matter though. This is why I've advised you to keep to hypotheticals.

Example: Two men are found, one dead, the other unconscious clutching a gun. He reports to have no memory of the event, but all evidence conclusively demonstrates he shot the other man.

Now this man can't really claim self-defense and justify it because he remembers nothing, but the case is not over, the state must still prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was a murder. Again, this is the hazy nature of affirmative defense, it implies a burden of proof but it still ultimately comes back to the beyond a reasonable doubt burden on the prosecution. Yet the defense can offer nothing, the defendant remembers nothing, the defendant does not recognize the man. Now based on your prior remarks you think this person is well setup to escape justice, but not so. Motive, means, and opportunity. The last two are established, the prosecutor needs to come up with the first, if he can show the defendant did know the man, well that's pretty solid - though not definite - proof he's lying but that lie does not necessarily mean he's a murderer. He may well have met the man in passing, in his memory, but blanked out the altercation they had at the bar that led to the fight and killing, and been afraid to admit he knew him at all, or later remembered him but been afraid to change his story. From what you've been saying in this and recent posts, that act of not apparently not telling the truth should result in a conviction. But this is where we get into the practical, because that bar altercation is going to have been witnessed, forensic evidence may exist indicating who started the tussle, and so on, and it has to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. Its not that rare or impossible, most murders that make it to and through a grand jury do result in convictions.


I know everyone lies to one degree or another. I also know that when someone is a habitual liar, and provably so, their word should not count for much at their trial if their lying habit is exposed publicly. Once a jury believes their credibility, there is not much that can be done about the outcome, and that is where the conclusion of this particular trial has left us.

Look, we can argue hypothetical situations until the cows come home. It does not change the fact that the application of the law in Florida leaves much to be desired. If it is possible for someone to initiate contact and start a chain of events which results in the other person's death and they are not an aggressor, then we need to question what it means to act aggressively. If I shout insults at you until you get angry enough to strike back and I shoot you dead, I am apparently justified in claiming self-defense, even if you only get close enough to give me a bruise. Probably not even then, as long as you "look menacing" such that I can convince a jury that you are a fearful character. Am I being aggressive by provoking you to action? If I follow you and, without identifying myself or my intentions, try to chase you down simply for walking home from the store, am I acting aggressively? If the two men in your scenario were involved in an altercation that many witnesses can prove was a mutual escalation then a self-defense claim is more probable as "heat of passion" is an excuse for an accidental killing. If one definitively provokes the other, the one provoking the fight should not get to claim self-defense without a pretty high justification for acting with deadly force.

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Zimmerman = Not Guilty - 14/07/2013 04:04:07 AM 1777 Views
Any charge, other than stupidity, was rediculous. *NM* - 14/07/2013 04:24:09 AM 503 Views
Stupidity+Death= Manslaughter *NM* - 14/07/2013 05:27:39 AM 474 Views
But hey... - 14/07/2013 05:35:11 AM 1000 Views
And THAT is the scary precendent this case sets for the populace - 14/07/2013 05:28:03 PM 1131 Views
Oh puhleeze... can you get any more rediculous? *NM* - 14/07/2013 07:22:52 PM 623 Views
HyogaRott baby, you are hurting me here. Can you please stop this? - 14/07/2013 11:29:00 PM 883 Views
If inline spellcheck doesn't catch it, I probably won't either. - 15/07/2013 06:29:29 AM 813 Views
you really are small minded little bigot - 15/07/2013 03:57:01 AM 901 Views
+1 - Seriously has imlad always been this nuts? *NM* - 15/07/2013 04:32:33 AM 537 Views
Your reply is partisan and obnoxious. - 15/07/2013 02:15:13 PM 903 Views
So it was okay that he was on top of a guy, pounding his head into the pavement? - 14/07/2013 06:45:17 PM 905 Views
If you can believe Zimmerman's side of the story is 100% truth, I have a bridge for sale... - 15/07/2013 05:35:08 PM 1003 Views
do you have actual evidence to support zimmerman lied? *NM* - 16/07/2013 05:43:42 PM 503 Views
Sure - 16/07/2013 06:49:20 PM 787 Views
Re: Sure - 16/07/2013 07:53:27 PM 946 Views
Re: Sure - 16/07/2013 10:07:13 PM 986 Views
Re: Sure - 17/07/2013 03:26:15 AM 925 Views
The kid decided to beat a man who had a gun and got shot for it - 15/07/2013 03:46:38 AM 880 Views
In a sane world, here is how their interaction plays out - 15/07/2013 05:44:26 PM 844 Views
Yes. And the fact that he didn't simply ask him what he was doing, tells me he was racial profiling - 15/07/2013 08:59:41 PM 836 Views
The only way that statement makes sense is if it is sarcasm - 16/07/2013 12:46:59 PM 788 Views
And tomorrow I get to preach about the Good Samaritan. - 14/07/2013 05:26:50 AM 1065 Views
Where's your forgiveness?? Judge not lest ye be judged. - 14/07/2013 07:10:14 PM 829 Views
Did I say a thing about Zimmerman? No. - 14/07/2013 08:44:26 PM 967 Views
Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Which neighborhood watch were you referring to? - 15/07/2013 12:46:44 AM 929 Views
Float your concept of grace in front of your priest sometime. - 15/07/2013 04:31:34 AM 800 Views
Danny... - 15/07/2013 01:32:03 PM 897 Views
You'd think the rain of venom in here would make everyone's soapbox too slippery to stand on - 15/07/2013 01:05:41 PM 845 Views
+1 *NM* - 15/07/2013 06:40:15 PM 558 Views
would that be true for most of politics as well? *NM* - 16/07/2013 12:58:33 PM 523 Views
Depends on the case, but those aren't individual life and death criminal trials - 16/07/2013 01:52:00 PM 763 Views
when the president gets involved it is safe to polotics are at play. - 16/07/2013 06:23:54 PM 818 Views
That's not an unfair remark but it justifies criticizing him, not also getting involved in the case - 16/07/2013 06:59:53 PM 830 Views
When a case shows glaring holes in the law, it should by nature cause those laws to be reconsidered - 16/07/2013 07:18:57 PM 923 Views
I'm not sure what those 'glaring holes' are, but a specific person shouldn't be needed to show them - 16/07/2013 08:18:38 PM 823 Views
It is a bit difficult to not use the case when the specificity of the case is the problem.... - 16/07/2013 11:06:59 PM 893 Views
I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so - 17/07/2013 12:14:39 AM 957 Views
Re: I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so - 17/07/2013 05:29:56 PM 957 Views
I think you've over-personalized this case - 17/07/2013 08:00:50 PM 877 Views
I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice - 17/07/2013 10:34:38 PM 932 Views
Re: I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice - 18/07/2013 01:39:17 AM 1071 Views
Jury instructions - 18/07/2013 04:12:29 AM 1022 Views
Jury Instructions 2 - 18/07/2013 06:22:33 PM 880 Views
I just want to comment on two points from your reply - 19/07/2013 09:47:06 PM 784 Views
I'm pretty throughly exhausted of this - 19/07/2013 10:46:22 PM 891 Views
Nice. - 16/07/2013 09:01:50 PM 975 Views
Thanks - 16/07/2013 09:48:00 PM 810 Views
Well said. - 17/07/2013 02:25:36 PM 975 Views
it is possible to discuss a case based on what the evidence shows - 17/07/2013 06:03:05 PM 965 Views
Of course it is possible, one just fails to see how it can serve any good end - 17/07/2013 09:43:02 PM 831 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 18/07/2013 02:08:25 AM 588 Views
That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you - 18/07/2013 02:52:15 AM 867 Views
Re: That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you - 18/07/2013 04:09:51 AM 981 Views
are agree with your general concept - 18/07/2013 05:20:41 PM 1106 Views
Good. - 15/07/2013 02:11:12 PM 800 Views
Perhaps one day black people will have the same rights as whites in the US - 15/07/2013 05:30:00 PM 967 Views
Congratulations on making one of the dumbest statemets of the year. *NM* - 15/07/2013 09:00:46 PM 565 Views
You have tried retroatcively making Martin a criminal here, despite him doing nothing wrong - 15/07/2013 10:52:32 PM 853 Views
So you support attacking creepy crackers who you think are following you? - 16/07/2013 12:56:52 PM 848 Views
The law suggests that if I fear for my safety, I am justified in attacking first in self-defense - 18/07/2013 11:00:58 PM 918 Views
there is zero evidience to support that assumption - 19/07/2013 04:25:15 AM 785 Views
Let's see - Martin was using drugs..... - 16/07/2013 04:56:13 PM 841 Views
Does that mean he should have been hunted down and shot? *NM* - 16/07/2013 05:22:43 PM 515 Views
He wasn't, so your question is irrelevant. - 16/07/2013 05:37:27 PM 767 Views

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