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It is a bit difficult to not use the case when the specificity of the case is the problem.... Jay Sherman Send a noteboard - 16/07/2013 11:06:59 PM

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View original postBut what I meant though was that the political issues we discuss are more complicated and less well understood that this trial. I agree with the concept that criminal trials should not be used as entertainment but this particular case is influencing politics. When a case is being used as justification for political action then the merit off the case becomes part of the political discussion.


View original postWhich is why we should denounce those who try to use specific criminal cases to advance their rhetoric and agenda, not join them in the gutter. This is no different then those who point to any individual tragedy and try to use crocodile tears and 'think of the children!' to advance their agenda. Let us, instead, denounce those who attempt to damage a person's right to a fair hearing for their gain.




View original postThis is the biggest lesson of this particular trial: The state of Florida provides more rights to the killer in a self-defense case than they would otherwise be subject to.

How so please? Quote the specific passage(s) of Florida Law which do so, contrasted to other states. I am of Ohio so an Ohio R.C. quotation would be proper I think, or your own home state.


This trial shows that, even if you follow someone despite the police telling you not to,

No policeman told him not to, as I understand it. Certainly no police officer ordered him not to, which would be all that would matter.


then shoot that person dead, you can literally get away with murder.

Again, that argument need not rely on this specific case to be advanced. If a person is ordered not to do something by the police, and does it anyway, and someone else dies, that is not proof of murder. In fact it is likely to be utterly irrelevant.Whether or not it was in this specific case, one can make arguments with respect to. The state did so argue, the jury did not find it compelling.


Unfortunately, it seems that Florida politicians are all too happy to continue having these laws protect the killers over the victims, as none of the lawmakers I've seen interviewed have any desire to revisit the laws which created this mess.

Again, which laws are those and how should they be changed? I deal in facts and specifics, if you wish to sway me, cite those laws, explain why those laws are themselves flawed, and suggest how if at all you think they should be replaced. None of this should ever require the mention of Zimmerman or Martin, they need only be hypothetical arguments.


Using the link provided by HR, the only thing the laws require are that use of force be justified by a person "reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; "

From the way I see it, Martin has every right to use force against Zimmerman since Zimmerman is actively pursuing Martin from the time Martin entered the community. Both from his car and then on foot, Zimmerman is being aggressive in his determination to stop the "fucking punks" from "always get[ting] away".

The jury, and yourself and others here, have determined that Martin has no right to self-defense if he believes his life is in danger for whatever reason. I can point to the inherent and institutional racism in the US as the main culprit in determining that Martin's actions are automatically suspicious despite the fact that he did nothing other than walk home from the store, but of course that is the rather large elephant in the room. Somehow it is perfectly fine for one citizen to actively pursue another but be absolved of causing the pursued to fear for their safety.

This is the glaring error in the law, and one of the reasons it should be changed. I should not be justified in shooting you dead if, through my own actions, I inserted myself into a situation which led to deadly force being applied against you. Actively pursuing someone the way Zimmerman did to Martin should have been grounds for a manslaughter conviction. Unfortunately, the jury did not agree this time, but I can completely agree that occasionally a guilty person will be set free as long as the process is applied fairly. In this particular case, the law was not applied fairly, even if the process was.

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Zimmerman = Not Guilty - 14/07/2013 04:04:07 AM 1777 Views
Any charge, other than stupidity, was rediculous. *NM* - 14/07/2013 04:24:09 AM 503 Views
Stupidity+Death= Manslaughter *NM* - 14/07/2013 05:27:39 AM 474 Views
But hey... - 14/07/2013 05:35:11 AM 1000 Views
And THAT is the scary precendent this case sets for the populace - 14/07/2013 05:28:03 PM 1131 Views
Oh puhleeze... can you get any more rediculous? *NM* - 14/07/2013 07:22:52 PM 623 Views
HyogaRott baby, you are hurting me here. Can you please stop this? - 14/07/2013 11:29:00 PM 883 Views
If inline spellcheck doesn't catch it, I probably won't either. - 15/07/2013 06:29:29 AM 815 Views
you really are small minded little bigot - 15/07/2013 03:57:01 AM 902 Views
+1 - Seriously has imlad always been this nuts? *NM* - 15/07/2013 04:32:33 AM 537 Views
Your reply is partisan and obnoxious. - 15/07/2013 02:15:13 PM 903 Views
So it was okay that he was on top of a guy, pounding his head into the pavement? - 14/07/2013 06:45:17 PM 905 Views
If you can believe Zimmerman's side of the story is 100% truth, I have a bridge for sale... - 15/07/2013 05:35:08 PM 1004 Views
do you have actual evidence to support zimmerman lied? *NM* - 16/07/2013 05:43:42 PM 503 Views
Sure - 16/07/2013 06:49:20 PM 787 Views
Re: Sure - 16/07/2013 07:53:27 PM 948 Views
Re: Sure - 16/07/2013 10:07:13 PM 986 Views
Re: Sure - 17/07/2013 03:26:15 AM 926 Views
The kid decided to beat a man who had a gun and got shot for it - 15/07/2013 03:46:38 AM 881 Views
In a sane world, here is how their interaction plays out - 15/07/2013 05:44:26 PM 846 Views
Yes. And the fact that he didn't simply ask him what he was doing, tells me he was racial profiling - 15/07/2013 08:59:41 PM 837 Views
The only way that statement makes sense is if it is sarcasm - 16/07/2013 12:46:59 PM 789 Views
And tomorrow I get to preach about the Good Samaritan. - 14/07/2013 05:26:50 AM 1065 Views
Where's your forgiveness?? Judge not lest ye be judged. - 14/07/2013 07:10:14 PM 830 Views
Did I say a thing about Zimmerman? No. - 14/07/2013 08:44:26 PM 969 Views
Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Which neighborhood watch were you referring to? - 15/07/2013 12:46:44 AM 931 Views
Float your concept of grace in front of your priest sometime. - 15/07/2013 04:31:34 AM 801 Views
Danny... - 15/07/2013 01:32:03 PM 898 Views
You'd think the rain of venom in here would make everyone's soapbox too slippery to stand on - 15/07/2013 01:05:41 PM 846 Views
+1 *NM* - 15/07/2013 06:40:15 PM 558 Views
would that be true for most of politics as well? *NM* - 16/07/2013 12:58:33 PM 523 Views
Depends on the case, but those aren't individual life and death criminal trials - 16/07/2013 01:52:00 PM 765 Views
when the president gets involved it is safe to polotics are at play. - 16/07/2013 06:23:54 PM 819 Views
That's not an unfair remark but it justifies criticizing him, not also getting involved in the case - 16/07/2013 06:59:53 PM 831 Views
When a case shows glaring holes in the law, it should by nature cause those laws to be reconsidered - 16/07/2013 07:18:57 PM 925 Views
I'm not sure what those 'glaring holes' are, but a specific person shouldn't be needed to show them - 16/07/2013 08:18:38 PM 824 Views
It is a bit difficult to not use the case when the specificity of the case is the problem.... - 16/07/2013 11:06:59 PM 894 Views
I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so - 17/07/2013 12:14:39 AM 958 Views
Re: I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so - 17/07/2013 05:29:56 PM 958 Views
I think you've over-personalized this case - 17/07/2013 08:00:50 PM 877 Views
I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice - 17/07/2013 10:34:38 PM 933 Views
Re: I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice - 18/07/2013 01:39:17 AM 1072 Views
Jury instructions - 18/07/2013 04:12:29 AM 1024 Views
Jury Instructions 2 - 18/07/2013 06:22:33 PM 881 Views
I just want to comment on two points from your reply - 19/07/2013 09:47:06 PM 786 Views
I'm pretty throughly exhausted of this - 19/07/2013 10:46:22 PM 891 Views
Nice. - 16/07/2013 09:01:50 PM 975 Views
Thanks - 16/07/2013 09:48:00 PM 810 Views
Well said. - 17/07/2013 02:25:36 PM 976 Views
it is possible to discuss a case based on what the evidence shows - 17/07/2013 06:03:05 PM 967 Views
Of course it is possible, one just fails to see how it can serve any good end - 17/07/2013 09:43:02 PM 832 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 18/07/2013 02:08:25 AM 588 Views
That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you - 18/07/2013 02:52:15 AM 867 Views
Re: That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you - 18/07/2013 04:09:51 AM 982 Views
are agree with your general concept - 18/07/2013 05:20:41 PM 1106 Views
Good. - 15/07/2013 02:11:12 PM 800 Views
Perhaps one day black people will have the same rights as whites in the US - 15/07/2013 05:30:00 PM 968 Views
Congratulations on making one of the dumbest statemets of the year. *NM* - 15/07/2013 09:00:46 PM 565 Views
You have tried retroatcively making Martin a criminal here, despite him doing nothing wrong - 15/07/2013 10:52:32 PM 854 Views
So you support attacking creepy crackers who you think are following you? - 16/07/2013 12:56:52 PM 848 Views
The law suggests that if I fear for my safety, I am justified in attacking first in self-defense - 18/07/2013 11:00:58 PM 922 Views
there is zero evidience to support that assumption - 19/07/2013 04:25:15 AM 785 Views
Let's see - Martin was using drugs..... - 16/07/2013 04:56:13 PM 843 Views
Does that mean he should have been hunted down and shot? *NM* - 16/07/2013 05:22:43 PM 515 Views
He wasn't, so your question is irrelevant. - 16/07/2013 05:37:27 PM 767 Views

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