I'm not sure what those 'glaring holes' are, but a specific person shouldn't be needed to show them
Isaac Send a noteboard - 16/07/2013 08:18:38 PM
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View original postBut what I meant though was that the political issues we discuss are more complicated and less well understood that this trial. I agree with the concept that criminal trials should not be used as entertainment but this particular case is influencing politics. When a case is being used as justification for political action then the merit off the case becomes part of the political discussion.
View original postWhich is why we should denounce those who try to use specific criminal cases to advance their rhetoric and agenda, not join them in the gutter. This is no different then those who point to any individual tragedy and try to use crocodile tears and 'think of the children!' to advance their agenda. Let us, instead, denounce those who attempt to damage a person's right to a fair hearing for their gain.
View original postThis is the biggest lesson of this particular trial: The state of Florida provides more rights to the killer in a self-defense case than they would otherwise be subject to.
How so please? Quote the specific passage(s) of Florida Law which do so, contrasted to other states. I am of Ohio so an Ohio R.C. quotation would be proper I think, or your own home state.
This trial shows that, even if you follow someone despite the police telling you not to,
No policeman told him not to, as I understand it. Certainly no police officer ordered him not to, which would be all that would matter.
then shoot that person dead, you can literally get away with murder.
Again, that argument need not rely on this specific case to be advanced. If a person is ordered not to do something by the police, and does it anyway, and someone else dies, that is not proof of murder. In fact it is likely to be utterly irrelevant.Whether or not it was in this specific case, one can make arguments with respect to. The state did so argue, the jury did not find it compelling.
Unfortunately, it seems that Florida politicians are all too happy to continue having these laws protect the killers over the victims, as none of the lawmakers I've seen interviewed have any desire to revisit the laws which created this mess.
Again, which laws are those and how should they be changed? I deal in facts and specifics, if you wish to sway me, cite those laws, explain why those laws are themselves flawed, and suggest how if at all you think they should be replaced. None of this should ever require the mention of Zimmerman or Martin, they need only be hypothetical arguments.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Zimmerman = Not Guilty
- 14/07/2013 04:04:07 AM
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Any charge, other than stupidity, was rediculous. *NM*
- 14/07/2013 04:24:09 AM
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But hey...
- 14/07/2013 05:35:11 AM
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And THAT is the scary precendent this case sets for the populace
- 14/07/2013 05:28:03 PM
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Oh puhleeze... can you get any more rediculous? *NM*
- 14/07/2013 07:22:52 PM
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HyogaRott baby, you are hurting me here. Can you please stop this?
- 14/07/2013 11:29:00 PM
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Re: And THAT is the scary precendent this case sets for the populace
- 14/07/2013 07:32:26 PM
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So it was okay that he was on top of a guy, pounding his head into the pavement?
- 14/07/2013 06:45:17 PM
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If you can believe Zimmerman's side of the story is 100% truth, I have a bridge for sale...
- 15/07/2013 05:35:08 PM
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Silly post - following someone around is not legal justification for physical assault.
- 15/07/2013 12:47:54 AM
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And lying about self-defense should not be grounds for acquittal of all charges, but there you go *NM*
- 15/07/2013 05:43:15 PM
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I think it all really has to do with reasonable doubt
- 16/07/2013 01:08:24 PM
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The burden of proof should have been on the shooter to prove lethal force was necessary
- 16/07/2013 06:52:17 PM
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So, you prefer "guilty until proven innocent"?
- 16/07/2013 06:54:56 PM
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Yes, and I also eat babies for breakfast and make sure I kick at least one puppy a day *facepalm*
- 16/07/2013 07:13:11 PM
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Re: The burden of proof should have been on the shooter to prove lethal force was necessary
- 16/07/2013 07:18:36 PM
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Re: The burden of proof should have been on the shooter to prove lethal force was necessary
- 16/07/2013 07:21:42 PM
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Re: The burden of proof should have been on the shooter to prove lethal force was necessary
- 16/07/2013 07:30:39 PM
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The kid decided to beat a man who had a gun and got shot for it
- 15/07/2013 03:46:38 AM
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In a sane world, here is how their interaction plays out
- 15/07/2013 05:44:26 PM
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Yes. And the fact that he didn't simply ask him what he was doing, tells me he was racial profiling
- 15/07/2013 08:59:41 PM
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The only way that statement makes sense is if it is sarcasm
- 16/07/2013 12:46:59 PM
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You are suggesting that it is better to shoot first rather than engage in diplomacy
- 16/07/2013 07:05:32 PM
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And you continue to ignore all the evidence that supports the theory that Martin attacked Zimmerman
- 16/07/2013 07:20:55 PM
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You are defending a known liar with a history of domestic violence
- 16/07/2013 07:23:11 PM
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Actually I am not defending anyone (except the rule of law).
- 16/07/2013 08:00:38 PM
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You keep insisting that Martin started the fight, giving him no chance of his own self-defense right
- 16/07/2013 09:25:17 PM
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Please, Please, PLEASE actually read the laws of Florida that I have posted a link to for you.
- 16/07/2013 09:41:15 PM
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I have read the laws you linked to, I fail to see how they cannot also apply to Martin
- 16/07/2013 10:40:46 PM
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You failed to identify any laws. *NM*
- 16/07/2013 10:49:20 PM
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I saved it for the reply to Isaac below if you really need it *NM*
- 16/07/2013 11:07:53 PM
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Re: I have read the laws you linked to, I fail to see how they cannot also apply to Martin
- 17/07/2013 03:41:58 AM
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And tomorrow I get to preach about the Good Samaritan.
- 14/07/2013 05:26:50 AM
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Where's your forgiveness?? Judge not lest ye be judged.
- 14/07/2013 07:10:14 PM
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Did I say a thing about Zimmerman? No.
- 14/07/2013 08:44:26 PM
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Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Which neighborhood watch were you referring to?
- 15/07/2013 12:46:44 AM
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Float your concept of grace in front of your priest sometime.
- 15/07/2013 04:31:34 AM
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What concept of grace is that? Where did I discuss anything remotely touching on grace?
- 19/07/2013 12:10:12 PM
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Time to climb to the roof of the city morgue and light the Dexter signal. *NM*
- 15/07/2013 04:41:35 AM
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You'd think the rain of venom in here would make everyone's soapbox too slippery to stand on
- 15/07/2013 01:05:41 PM
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would that be true for most of politics as well? *NM*
- 16/07/2013 12:58:33 PM
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Depends on the case, but those aren't individual life and death criminal trials
- 16/07/2013 01:52:00 PM
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when the president gets involved it is safe to polotics are at play.
- 16/07/2013 06:23:54 PM
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That's not an unfair remark but it justifies criticizing him, not also getting involved in the case
- 16/07/2013 06:59:53 PM
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When a case shows glaring holes in the law, it should by nature cause those laws to be reconsidered
- 16/07/2013 07:18:57 PM
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I'm not sure what those 'glaring holes' are, but a specific person shouldn't be needed to show them
- 16/07/2013 08:18:38 PM
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To assist you with Isaac's request, here is the link to the Laws in Florida
- 16/07/2013 08:23:14 PM
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It is a bit difficult to not use the case when the specificity of the case is the problem....
- 16/07/2013 11:06:59 PM
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I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so
- 17/07/2013 12:14:39 AM
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Re: I sympathize with that but I think it remains a moral necessity to do so
- 17/07/2013 05:29:56 PM
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You are asking for what already exists, and are/were in force at the time.
- 17/07/2013 06:33:54 PM
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I think you've over-personalized this case
- 17/07/2013 08:00:50 PM
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I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice
- 17/07/2013 10:34:38 PM
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Re: I think this case is simply the closest example at hand of a perceived lack of justice
- 18/07/2013 01:39:17 AM
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Jury Instruction 3 - w/ link to pdf of model FL jury instruction for all criminal cases
- 18/07/2013 09:51:47 PM
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Your logical error is failing to realize that me following you does NOT meet the statutes
- 17/07/2013 04:01:52 AM
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Why do you insist on stating things that have been demonstrated to be false?
- 16/07/2013 08:19:08 PM
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Well said.
- 17/07/2013 02:25:36 PM
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it is possible to discuss a case based on what the evidence shows
- 17/07/2013 06:03:05 PM
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Of course it is possible, one just fails to see how it can serve any good end
- 17/07/2013 09:43:02 PM
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That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you
- 18/07/2013 02:52:15 AM
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Re: That just brings us full circle to my orignal reply to you
- 18/07/2013 04:09:51 AM
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are agree with your general concept
- 18/07/2013 05:20:41 PM
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My concern all along has been what the laws actually are, and to clear the air of the BS.
- 18/07/2013 06:06:21 PM
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/07/trayvon_martin_verdict_racism_hat
- 18/07/2013 02:04:36 AM
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Perhaps one day black people will have the same rights as whites in the US
- 15/07/2013 05:30:00 PM
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Congratulations on making one of the dumbest statemets of the year. *NM*
- 15/07/2013 09:00:46 PM
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You have tried retroatcively making Martin a criminal here, despite him doing nothing wrong
- 15/07/2013 10:52:32 PM
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I really shouldn't bother but I will try one more time to introduce you to rational thought.
- 16/07/2013 05:31:12 AM
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So you support attacking creepy crackers who you think are following you?
- 16/07/2013 12:56:52 PM
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The law suggests that if I fear for my safety, I am justified in attacking first in self-defense
- 18/07/2013 11:00:58 PM
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there is zero evidience to support that assumption
- 19/07/2013 04:25:15 AM
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There is zero evidence to support Zimmerman's version of their initial encounter
- 19/07/2013 09:32:24 PM
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Sorry but you have your facts wrong Martin was identified as the person top
- 20/07/2013 01:32:00 AM
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Let's see - Martin was using drugs.....
- 16/07/2013 04:56:13 PM
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Funny how black victims are rare enough to be famous.
- 19/07/2013 12:24:12 PM
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Please cite the legal statutes Trayvon Martin violated before Zimmerman approached him
- 19/07/2013 10:24:59 PM
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Do you have any actual facts to prove Zimmerman mad his story or is it pure bias?
- 20/07/2013 04:21:55 PM
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