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Ok. nossy Send a noteboard - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM

View original postThere are things I do not like about many of the Islamic cultures but then again there are things I dislike about my own. I am too young to remember segregation but it was part of the culture I was born into but I was not part of it and I don't believe I share the older generation’s guilt. I am not responsible for all the sins of my culture and neither or Muslims. If I was to support profiling of Muslims I would be no better than those who supported segregation. That being said I don't feel responsible for all the problems in their society simply because my ancestors came from the same country as the people who colonized their country did. As you said there is a complex history and while the west did cause some problems ultimately they need to take responsibility for their culture.

I don't feel responsible, but I also don't think it is fair to pretend it never happened. Or that it didn't have any lasting effect - history moves quickly, but we are still much too close to the 50-80s to pretend the nasty stuff didn't happen. For Pete's sake, my parents were born in the 50s. I have two grandparents still surviving - I get interesting stories all the time, though some of the bits about the Russians aren't exactly what I'd call true. Angst dies sloooooowwwly, and we are still there. Where would they have been able to draw the line and move on?
View original postLook at American Indians, I don’t believe there is a culture that stood less of chance or who were has heavily decimated. Now their culture is ripe with alcoholism, domestic abuse and chronic unemployment. Those are direct results of the actions of European settlers but on the individual level of an Indian man stays so drunk he can’t work and beats his wife he is the one responsible for those actions. Yeah he was dealt a shitting hand but it is up to him how he plays it.

I don't exactly disagree with any particular point, and I do fully agree that we are responsible for ourselves. The problem I have is that when you and I convince ourselves it's fair to think in black and white, it makes it that much easier to ignore just how often the shitty hand loses.

Can we ignore how easily that breeds generational desperation? And how hard that is to cure?

Reply to message
Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2610 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 750 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 659 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 729 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1138 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1199 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 681 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1237 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1188 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1349 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1193 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 762 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1205 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1394 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1495 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1062 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 680 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 714 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1132 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 765 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1204 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1134 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1115 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 990 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1065 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 743 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1116 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 706 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1040 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1134 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1079 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1111 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1343 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1109 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1215 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 665 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1078 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 701 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 659 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1096 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1028 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1181 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1113 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1116 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1196 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1214 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1197 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 992 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1118 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1435 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1316 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1067 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1021 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1145 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1090 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1135 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1005 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 948 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1037 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 955 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1132 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1039 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 993 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1051 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 959 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1058 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1078 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1004 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 605 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1313 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1187 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1384 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 983 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1108 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1068 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1226 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1228 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 605 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 666 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1185 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1070 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1030 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1083 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 791 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1215 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1057 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 724 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1150 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1006 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1197 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1135 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 945 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1203 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1006 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1007 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1157 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 676 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1059 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1176 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1139 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1136 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1122 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 668 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1145 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1109 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1078 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 685 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1042 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1149 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1059 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1078 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 981 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1070 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1091 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1222 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1194 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1041 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1134 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 645 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1074 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1080 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1029 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1242 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1143 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1205 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1222 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1425 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1300 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1154 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1140 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 709 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 640 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1201 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1181 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1318 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 615 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1012 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 993 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1032 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1093 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 631 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 624 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 613 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1014 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 664 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1066 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 654 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 999 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1145 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1188 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1023 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 657 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1116 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1104 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1014 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 680 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 988 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 932 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1118 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 668 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1272 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1692 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1142 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1027 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1213 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1601 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1187 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1632 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1182 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1485 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1397 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 894 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1108 Views
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