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Huh, double post. Haven't done THAT in a while. I, uh, blame Ben. *NM* Aemon Send a noteboard - 26/04/2013 09:28:07 PM

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View original postThat old Archimedes quip about a big enough lever is largely accurate, give me unlimited resources but only modern tech and moving a spaceship to Mars is minor, we could move the whole damn solar system by suspending reflective statites over the Sun.

Archimedes referenced a technology that was absolutely not possible for his time and civilization. The entire planet working together with every resource at their disposal could not have enacted his proposal. That, to me, says "technical" problem. Our civilization COULD get to Mars. We could do it for far less than the GDP of a single nation. Even if that's not a rational or sensible use of our resources, we could do it, without impacting the survival of our species whatsoever. That, to me, makes it a social / financial issue rather than a technical one. I agree with most of your points, though (even if I'm going to argue with some of them below, just because ) so I don't think we have vastly differing opinions. We just have different terminology is all.


View original postBut fuel is an issue, because it cost us around ~$10,000 per kilogram to get to LEO and that means ferrying up a megaton, around a billion kg, would cost us around 10 trillion dollars. Is it doable? Sure. Do we need a full megaton? No, hardly, and that's where the problem arises. Every time we shave off mass to shave off cost we increase those 'technical problems'. It's like building a mile high skyscraper. Can we do it? Sure, absolutely. Should we with current tech and situation? Hell no. Even if people gave the thumbs up to a trillion-dollar expedition, which is what I'd want to do it, I'd still say no. A Mars colony is an utter waste of time until we get better tech, and a trip to Mars for no other purpose but to plant the flag is stupid. Until we jump some more technical hurdles.

Fuel is, of course, a gigantic issue. And for what it's worth, I'm on your "not worth it" side. I do think you're vastly exaggerating the problems, however. Why on Earth Mars do we need a BILLION kg? People have lived on the ISS for upwards of a year, and the entire ISS is only about half a million kg. Or, in other words, two thousand times smaller. You seem to be basing most of your mass requirement on shielding the entire capsule, which is not necessary. Radiation shelters work adequately on the ISS, and would likely do the same on a Mars trip. Once the colonists land, they can use Martian soil and the atmosphere to provide additional shielding. Also, as to launch costs, my understanding is that LEO costs of the Falcon Heavy are around $2000/kg, not $10,000.

So, yeah. Stupid and unnecessary? Probably. 10 trillion dollars for a reasonable shot at success? No way. A megaton is equal to about five of the world's largest cruise ships. That is an absolutely absurd amount of mass for the bare-bones existence of four individuals.


This message last edited by Aemon on 26/04/2013 at 09:32:20 PM
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If you could, would you move permanently to Mars? - 24/04/2013 03:30:55 AM 1530 Views
You want to go where? *NM* - 24/04/2013 06:29:07 AM 447 Views
Have you read the 'Mars' trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson? - 24/04/2013 06:37:26 AM 954 Views
Well, I'll look into it. - 24/04/2013 07:13:05 PM 847 Views
"Digital Descendants" - 25/04/2013 09:30:54 PM 872 Views
I think it's incredible that such a thing is even being attempted - 24/04/2013 08:13:16 AM 948 Views
I know. It really perplexes me that so many people are so down on it. - 24/04/2013 07:19:42 PM 896 Views
I am not gonna lie - 24/04/2013 08:24:57 AM 886 Views
No, and definitely not with this group - 24/04/2013 10:26:03 AM 962 Views
What's the problem, technically? - 24/04/2013 07:24:22 PM 863 Views
Basically? Mass and redundancy - 24/04/2013 10:40:30 PM 781 Views
The mass is what I wondered about. - 24/04/2013 11:03:36 PM 823 Views
Fuel costs are linear to mass, total costs are probably less - 25/04/2013 12:20:55 AM 774 Views
To put this in perspective, adding to Issac's points - 25/04/2013 01:50:38 AM 834 Views
That's not really a fair comparison. - 25/04/2013 08:18:35 PM 792 Views
Re: That's not really a fair comparison. - 26/04/2013 02:22:18 AM 746 Views
Re: That's not really a fair comparison. - 26/04/2013 08:58:45 PM 929 Views
I agree with your points, but you've still only listed financial (not technical) problems. - 25/04/2013 08:22:25 PM 809 Views
Finacial problems are technical problems - 25/04/2013 10:19:17 PM 799 Views
Maybe we just have different definitions. - 26/04/2013 09:25:33 PM 838 Views
Huh, double post. Haven't done THAT in a while. I, uh, blame Ben. *NM* - 26/04/2013 09:28:07 PM 907 Views
Re: Maybe we just have different definitions. - 26/04/2013 10:54:11 PM 798 Views
So, suppose someone put you in charge. - 27/04/2013 02:14:44 AM 836 Views
Well that would be a bad idea, but... - 27/04/2013 03:29:47 PM 938 Views
Ask me when I am 60, I adored the Mar Trilogy though *NM* - 24/04/2013 12:54:58 PM 491 Views
It's all about prospects and hard work. - 24/04/2013 03:16:56 PM 938 Views
I wouldn't go like that. - 24/04/2013 05:15:09 PM 838 Views
No, but I wouldn't mind sending a few people there - 25/04/2013 01:52:56 AM 843 Views
Not with that. - 25/04/2013 07:32:40 PM 789 Views
Probably. - 26/04/2013 10:02:58 PM 731 Views
This is by far the most elaborate form of suicide ever proposed. - 10/08/2013 08:04:43 AM 1492 Views

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