Active Users:1106 Time:23/11/2024 02:08:14 AM
"A well-regulated militia...." moondog Send a noteboard - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM

View original post
We have the Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms, not to keep and bear only certain specific weapons. Just like we have the protected right to freedom of the press, not freedom to print something on only a movable type hand powered printing press.

Too often this discussion gets parsed into the mind-frame of "do you NEED such and such weapon"; or "Why do you need such-n-such", when the real weight should be in the opposite direction. Because our Constitution declares that the citizens have the Right to keep and bear arms, and forbids the government to infringe upon that inherent Right, if the state desires to do so, it must have an overwhelmingly compelling, and specific, argument to be able to do so. There is no overwhelmingly compelling argument for banning ALL the US citizens from owning any of those specified weapons. Frankly I don't think that most of the existing gun ownership laws (and many other of our laws in fact)are within the intention of the Constitution.

As I've said before I agree that there are some common sense limitations that could exist. However, the attempted method of implementing them is horribly flawed. We can not let Congress pass laws the limit one of our Constitutionally protected Rights, because it seemed like a good idea at the time. By doing so we are opening the door for them to limit ANY of those other protected rights. IF someone feels that one of those Rights should be reduced in scope, then they need to make a much better argument, and get an amendment to our Constitution passed, not just pass an ordinary law.

We let it happen in the 30s from the fear of the mafia when the federal government virtually banned the real assault (fully automatic) weapons. In order to own one you must pay for an expensive federal license (as well as other heavy restrictions). If owning property, or paying a poll tax, infringes on a citizens Constitutional right to vote in an election, then an expensive federal license does the same thing to keeping an bearing arms.


i completely agree that the state does not have a case for banning assault weapons, since they are used in very few crimes or mass shootings, recent cases notwithstanding. therefore, if we are only going to ban weapons that the state has a severe interest in controlling, we should ban all handguns and pistols, since they are used in 90% of all crime and murders by firearms. but of course, the supreme court just upheld the right of individuals to own handguns in the Heller case. however, they left the door wide open on the government's ability to regulate and control the use and ownership of those weapons. once again, the 2nd amendment has a lot of room for regulation, and specifically says so in the first sentence. simply because you see it as an absolute right does not make it so.

edited to add: congress can and does pass limits to our constitutional rights all the time. you have clearly defined limits of free speech and religion, and there are many cases of 1st, 4th and 5th amendment rights being limited by the passage of laws and other means. don't pretend that the entirety of the Bill of Rights is somehow sacrosanct just because you don't want any limitations on the 2nd amendment.

"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
This message last edited by moondog on 25/03/2013 at 07:29:56 PM
Reply to message
US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1322 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 735 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 370 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 586 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 608 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 639 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 564 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 603 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 602 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 565 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 641 Views
Re: Ben Franklin said it best... - 21/03/2013 07:16:25 AM 677 Views
There can be NO negotiation, that is the point. This is a Constitutionally protected Right. - 21/03/2013 01:03:54 PM 621 Views
1st Amendment absolutism suggests libel and slander are unconstitutional. - 21/03/2013 07:24:34 PM 602 Views
One person's rights end where another's begin, as you well know. - 22/03/2013 02:38:37 AM 590 Views
all the same, none of the proposed laws truly infringe on your right to keep or use those guns.... - 22/03/2013 07:29:52 PM 624 Views
Apparently you did not read Feinstein's, you know the one that started this whole thread... - 23/03/2013 06:26:57 PM 598 Views
i'm aware of her statements, you'll have to actually prove your point.... - 24/03/2013 03:35:11 AM 511 Views
Her bill tried to eliminate my (and everone's) right to own all but 2,000 specific weapons. - 24/03/2013 12:30:56 PM 610 Views
"A well-regulated militia...." - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM 713 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meant "able to use it effectively" - 26/03/2013 01:23:07 PM 602 Views
we are long past the point where defense against tyranny is feasible - 26/03/2013 07:48:37 PM 604 Views
Feasibility is not the issue, it is the rule of law. - 27/03/2013 03:55:24 PM 664 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 669 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 564 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 837 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 591 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 640 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 731 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 965 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 735 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 582 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 525 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 570 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 550 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 528 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 780 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 745 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 759 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 569 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 315 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 588 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 652 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 547 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 576 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 620 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 559 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 312 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 300 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 328 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 298 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 673 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 583 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 323 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 588 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 564 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 610 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 549 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 604 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 306 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 707 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 553 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 846 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 859 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 754 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 470 Views

Reply to Message