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I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM

We'll drop the other matters because I don't see them as serving any point to discuss further and I doubt you do either

I basically have two first principles on guns:

  • Tyranny is never more than one bad generation away form happening anywhere, either because of being weak to invasion or careless in who we elect, so it is advantageous to have a population with access to so much weaponry with so little cataloging by individual it can't realistically be confiscated.

  • People have a right to protect themselves in any fashion which can't be demonstrated to be considerably more likely to hurt non-aggressors then protect from aggressors. This right can only be lost if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that you represent a significantly increased risk of danger with one, because everyone does have a right to defend themselves.

These two mostly match up in the current scheme of things. On the first, I like to remind people that we tend to lose as many soldiers to training accidents as in war, there are clearly a certain number of casualties we're willing to accept to minimize the risk of the loss of more lives or those lives living under a tyrannical yoke. So even if I thought banning all guns would not only make them disappear but eliminate every murder/accident done by them, rather than simply change the means to knife etc, I would still oppose restrictions because our loss rate to violence in this country is inside acceptable values to me. I don't view that as callous or draconian, just common sense recognition that Utopia is a long way off and that standing down to pacifist peace is premature when most of the world's people live in dictatorships and a lot of the remainder live in Democracy? rather than Democracy. Mexico is better than average then most official democracies, in terms of pop, even excluding the total jokes where Glorious Leader wins 99% of the vote, and obviously Mexico isn't a place where one can feel safe from tyranny.

So from my perspective, the situation has to be approached under the assumption one can not prevent reasonably easy access to weapons by all, because you get that if you have reasonably easy access by many which also can't be tracked in any fashion that would let State Security or our Foreign Liberators from showing up on your doorstep requesting you turn over your weapons and them having an accurate list of how many and what.

Can you do gun safety from this standpoint? Sure, I've discussed some methods before and I do it from the standpoint of statistics and common sense. Part of this comes from the increased safety and security and confidence imparted through basic instruction. Looking like a victim is a good way to become one, predators seek weakness. And as you've mentioned, much of this revolves around deterring the least determined criminals, that's going to apply to situations where they think there is a reasonably high probability a potential victim may be armed and dangerous. If I'm a mugger I'm going to be a lot more deterred by knowing 1 in 10 people walk around with a concealed weapon then by having to find a friend to buy a gun and lose it.

So my safety and control method is easy, I'm open to any option which encourages more people to seek training with weapons. Emphasis there on encourage, not make. I wouldn't try to control who can buy a gun at all, I'd just establish who can't own a gun and for how long. Armed robbery? 20 years of no guns, murder? Permanent, stealing a car, a few years or not at all. And you setup an anonymous tipline with a big reward and a big penalty for carrying a gun or having one stored in your residence (yours or not). I wouldn't even bother trying to control sales, it simply serves no practical purpose and wastes time and money. Dump those funds into a tipline reward account and safety training courses. If getting caught with a gun is going to get you thrown back in jail for a decade and you know there's a very real chance every time you try to commit a crime on a person they might shoot you dead its a much bigger deterrent then anything I've seen the left suggest, and it also doesn't even vaguely impact our own rights, which all your suggestions do in my opinion.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1322 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 737 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 370 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 587 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 610 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 640 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 566 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 605 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 602 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 566 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 642 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 671 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 565 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 839 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 592 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 642 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 732 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 965 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 736 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 583 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 527 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 572 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 551 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 530 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 781 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 746 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 760 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 934 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 569 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 551 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 842 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 654 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 535 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 571 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 315 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 590 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 654 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 549 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 578 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 622 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 561 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 312 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 300 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 328 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 298 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 673 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 585 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 323 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 589 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 566 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 610 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 549 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 605 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 306 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 709 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 554 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 846 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 861 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 754 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 472 Views

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