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i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) moondog Send a noteboard - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM

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You choose to interpret encouraging people to own weapons as a bad thing.

no, i interpret encouraging people to own a gun because the government will leave you on your own, in the cold, with no help coming, so your only recourse is to have a gun as a bad thing. i interpret telling people that Obama is going to take away their guns as a bad thing. i interpret telling people that the only solution to criminals having guns is more guns and even more guns as a bad thing. we are supposed to be a nation of laws, not gun-toting vigilantes ready to turn on each other as soon as the social (dis)order allows for it. we can keep guns out of criminals' hands without arming every man, woman and child. that is what i am asking for.


View original postThis is irrational, I advise everyone to keep a first aid kit in their home and car, and to learn how to use them, it is not because I do not trust our hospitals and emergency services nor would everyone having one and trained in its use eliminate hospitals. It might reduce some of our need for hospitals, if people were more versed in basic medicine and had the means to treat on hand, but that hardly seems a bad thing and would certainly not eliminate hospitals.

again, a first aid kit is a pretty benign thing. people aren't killing each other to the tune of 17,000 per year with first aid kits. criminals aren't buying first aid kits from illegal sellers on the street. let's keep the discussion in the realm of apples to apples.


View original postYour logic is flawed, based on irrational fear rather reason. Me carrying a gun would not represent distrust for the law, the police, or the judicial system. My various and numerous cop friends all carry weapons off duty, they encourage others to do so, and they use the simple logic that a gun on the person of a decent person who is trained in its use is better than a gun on a cop who is five minutes away. Same as my first aid kit in my car is right there and an ambulance is not, it may not help me, it is inferior option to an ambulance and trained paramedics if they are there, but it gives me an option.

once again, i am assuming you are all responsible gun owners and treat the weapons with the respect and care they are supposed to have. you are not (i assume) lobbying congress to allow things like the gun show loophole and preventing the authorities from enforcing the existing laws. it's like the difference between the republican party as a whole and its individual members. or for that matter, it's the difference between any large group and the individuals who make up that group. the group says and acts upon things that i find reprehensible, but the individuals who align themselves with that group are just regular people who i can disagree with but ultimately i don't have any major problem with them.

and before you translate this to more cognitive dissonance, realize that the NRA was not overly concerned with common sense restrictions to firearm ownership until around the time ronald reagan was shot. at that point they began the transformation to the group we see today, which believes that we should not limit access to guns but we should rather limit access to movies and video games. tell me which is more deadly, because i don't see people using movies and video games to kill thousands of people a year.


View original postAnd we inevitably return to the 'no gun' option because in spite of your other remarks your remarks above make it clear you consider the idea of even a significant minority of citizens being armed, CCW or open, to be terrifying and sickening to you, with your 'dystopia' remarks. My only conclusion form this is that you're very hostile to guns and have either been cynically lying to me this entire conversation or have severe dissonance on the matter in your own mind.

And this dystopia notion is ridiculous. Ohio alone has over 300,000 CCW permits currently and there has been no outbreaks of vigilante justice or firefights breaking out or duels. PA, with about the same population as us, has 800,000 issued and yet no bloodbath has broken out.


the dystopia notion is taking wayne lapierre at his word. let me quote him at his word, and you tell me whether or not i am drawing an irrational conclusion:

  • "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

  • "After Hurricane Sandy, we saw the hellish world that the gun prohibitionists see as their utopia. Looters ran wild in south Brooklyn. There was no food, water or electricity. And if you wanted to walk several miles to get supplies, you better get back before dark, or you might not get home at all."

  • "Hurricanes. Tornadoes. Riots. Terrorists. Gangs. Lone criminals. These are perils we are sure to face—not just maybe. It’s not paranoia to buy a gun. It’s survival. It’s responsible behavior, and it’s time we encourage law-abiding Americans to do just that."

  • "We, the American people, clearly see the daunting forces we will undoubtedly face: terrorists, crime, drug gangs, the possibility of Euro-style debt riots, civil unrest or natural disaster."

  • "Nobody knows if or when the fiscal collapse will come, but if the country is broke, there likely won’t be enough money to pay for police protection. And the American people know it."

  • "We must never, never, never forget New Orleans, ... The equation is always the same -- where there are good people and bad people -- the good people only win if they are armed."

the NRA has perpetuated the myth that "good guys with guns" is the pinnacle of human existence. all i am asking for is that we put some limits on the buying and selling of guns so that it is harder for people who should not have them to get them.

"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1322 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 737 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 370 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 587 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 610 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 639 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 564 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 605 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 602 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 566 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 642 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 671 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 565 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 839 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 592 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 642 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 732 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 965 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 736 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 582 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 527 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 572 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 551 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 529 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 781 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 745 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 760 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 571 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 315 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 589 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 654 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 549 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 578 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 621 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 561 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 312 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 300 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 328 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 298 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 673 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 585 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 323 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 589 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 566 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 610 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 549 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 604 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 306 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 708 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 554 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 846 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 861 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 754 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 471 Views

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