Active Users:1115 Time:23/11/2024 02:04:43 AM
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac Send a noteboard - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM

Low on time at the moment and we're getting long, so I'll just hit your final questions.


View original posti think it helps me approach this idea of compromise if i understand why you think a compromise is required. i think my position is quite reasonable and does not put any kind of restriction on your freedoms, but you are telling me that you don't want your freedom restricted, so your arguments make little sense to what i think we're discussing. so, in all honesty and with all due respect, please help me understand why the following are so restrictive to your freedom to own a gun. i realize this post got kind of long, so if you feel the need to pick and choose a response to what i've said, this is the one i'm most interested in hearing about. please tell me why the following pose such a threat to your individual freedom to own a firearm that they require concessions and compromises:


View original post* magazine capacity

I read a very good article on this recently I'll refer you to in the interests of time constraints on my end.


View original post* background checks for all purchases, no exceptions

No point, as long as a person is not held legally accountable for what is done with a gun they bought which was lost or stolen, which would be unethical to do, I could go buy six guns and hand them off to criminals under the table for a 50% mark up and claim they were stolen if it ever came up. The re-sell issue is always tricky problem of who can buy what, as I mentioned to Ghav below, it sort of works for booze and smokes with kids, because they're consumable things you need a steady supply of, and even then the control it gives us is very limited and half-assed. You only need to buy a gun once a blue moon, not daily or weekly. But as i also said to him, background checks don't much bug me, I just view them as a waste of time, especially since I'm on the record for believing it is absurd not to let a 40 year old vote and own a gun because he spent ages 18-24 in jail for grand theft. There's nothing wrong with a background check option, felons, reformed or not, have little legit expectation of privacy about the fact that they were convicted of a crime.

My objection then is that I can't see it accomplishing much, yet it does represent an increased hassle for legal vendors and buyers, so it can easily be seen as red tape to know end or deliberate inconvenience to discourage gun ownership, so like Conceal permits it would all be about the language and specifics. I have no strong objection to this


View original post* better enforcement of existing laws

What do you mean by better? That's very vague. The law is the law, and should be enforced, at the same time, 'better enforcement' can get Orwellian real fast. Also, existing law enforcement isn't under congressional purview, it's the DOJ, state/local that does that. I don't think a piece of legislation is likely to include 'better law enforcement' without a prefix of in the hope that this will allow...


View original post* prosecution of gun dealers with a history of selling to criminals

As above, prosecution of people violating the current law is not congresses concern, it's a matter for the local prosecutor, unless its a federal law, in which case its a matter for DOJ, not congress. I'm not generally going to object to trying anyone for a law they appear to have broken. So you're right on that one, you don't need to bargain with us, but then I can't recall the GOP or NRA saying we shouldn't prosecute apparent criminal action, regardless if we happen to think a given law is unjust. The thing is, I don't know what you mean by a history of selling to criminals, if they are selling to convicted felons by the drove it is a different story then if they are selling to a non-felon who is reselling, or if the purchases are being made by non-felons who then go become felons. These are all very different cases, which is why I said some of those examples were vague. Without some very detailed specifics I don't know if Tom's Gun Hut is selling guns ten times as often to criminal because they want to or if because the area just happens to have 10 times as many criminals and is a good gun spot because the high crime rate makes a lot of non-criminals want guns too.

Devil's in the details. What phrasing of legislation did you have in mind to achieve better enforcement and prosecution of existing laws?

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1322 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 735 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 370 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 586 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 608 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 639 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 564 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 603 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 602 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 564 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 641 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 669 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 564 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 837 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 591 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 640 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 731 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 965 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 735 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 582 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 525 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 570 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 549 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 528 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 780 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 745 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 759 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 569 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 315 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 588 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 652 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 547 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 576 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 620 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 559 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 312 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 300 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 328 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 298 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 673 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 583 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 323 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 588 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 564 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 610 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 549 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 604 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 306 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 707 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 553 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 846 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 859 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 754 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 470 Views

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