Active Users:350 Time:12/04/2025 07:12:39 AM
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes Jeordam Send a noteboard - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM

Can we (should we?) do anything in regards to the vendors who sell these guns? Are they responsible for the actions that are commited with the items that they sell?

Think of it this way. If a person has the money, they can buy a car/motorcycle. Even if that person is a fall down drunk who we are pretty sure is going to take that car/bike out on the road and end up killing themself or someone else, can we blame the car dealership?

It isn't the car dealership's job (nor responsibility) to get all nanny-state on it and ensure that the driver of the car is capable of operating the car the way it was intended. We can't fault the person selling the car. They didn't use it irresponsibly; the owner did that. The dealer didn't even sell it irresponsibly. The buyer had the required finances to buy it. The blame rests completely on the driver of the car.

The same is for the guns. If the law doesn't put stipulations on who they can sell to, than anyone with the money who meets the stipulations is good to go. What they do with the gun after it leaves their store is not their concern.

I get it. We're talking guns, not cars. But the throughs behind it are the same. Put the blame where it should be...the one pulling the trigger. If we want to enact laws & stipulations on who can own a gun, and the rules of sale, then let's talk about it and work it out.

Rules of Sale
- All gun sales must be recorded to the person buying, with state issued photo ID, method of payment, date, etc. Serial number of gun is linked to person buying.

  • All inventory must be accounted for at all times. A record of all gun serial numbers in inventory is required. During non-business hours, all guns must be secured/stored.

Then we can discuss who is allowed to buy, based on criminal history, mental health, etc. We have very strict laws/rules regarding the sale of substances which are directly harmful. Non-compliance with these laws/rules is a substantial fine at best, if not loosing the business operating liscence or imprisonment. There is no reason why guns can't be the same.

We can come up with real-life, common sense rules here. But the emotional rhetoric on both sides needs to be dialed back. The shootings in Colorado (both of them), Virginia Tech, and the Sandy Elementry were horrible, but we cannot emotionally charge onto the Senate floor and expect to come up with something good....let alone effective.

Because let's remember, we're talking about a Constitutional Right here. This is an actual right which is directly spelled out. If we can "take that right away" through an emotionally charged legislative event, then we have bigger issues and stepped directly on a slippery slope.

~Jeordam

ex-Admin at wotmania (all things wot & art galleries)
Saving the Princess, Humanity, or the World-Entire since 1985
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1380 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 798 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 395 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 664 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 672 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 710 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 621 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 671 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 642 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 630 Views
Absolutely - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 700 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 746 Views
That would depend, something of equal value - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 639 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 911 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 661 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 714 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 796 Views
some answers - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 1031 Views
Re: some answers - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 795 Views
Re: the NRA - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 656 Views
This is a matter of POV bias - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 589 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 648 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 621 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 591 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 851 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 817 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 825 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 1008 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 628 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 614 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 899 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 716 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 599 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 642 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 350 Views
I can't argue that - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 658 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 729 Views
what is high capacity? - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 622 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 648 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 684 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 631 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 341 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 327 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 351 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 322 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 732 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 665 Views
*NM* - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 350 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 661 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 636 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 676 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 612 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 665 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 334 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 783 Views
For what its worth.... - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 628 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 919 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 930 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 845 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 547 Views

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