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interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog Send a noteboard - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM

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He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.


in this case, what freedom specifically are you giving up or sacrificing? the new laws being proposed have zero to do with taking anyone's guns away unless they are a convicted felon or have other violent tendencies or mental illness. how does that infringe upon your individual right to keep and bear arms? are you suggesting that criminals and the criminally insane should have unfettered access to any and all weaponry available on the market?

also, how does a limit on how many bullets you can fire at one time count as sacrificing your freedoms? you still have your guns, you still are able to fire them, i'm not seeing where the sacrifice is coming from.

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"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill Anonymous2000 - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1446 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics moondog - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 860 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* Roland00 - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 423 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... Anonymous2000 - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 728 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." moondog - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 737 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 781 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... moondog - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 692 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions Isaac - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 734 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 704 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 699 Views
Absolutely HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 763 Views
Re: Ben Franklin said it best... Isaac - 21/03/2013 07:16:25 AM 810 Views
There can be NO negotiation, that is the point. This is a Constitutionally protected Right. HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:03:54 PM 746 Views
Including Capital Letters in pronouncements do NOT make something so Isaac - 21/03/2013 02:56:43 PM 781 Views
1st Amendment absolutism suggests libel and slander are unconstitutional. moondog - 21/03/2013 07:24:34 PM 733 Views
One person's rights end where another's begin, as you well know. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:38:37 AM 718 Views
all the same, none of the proposed laws truly infringe on your right to keep or use those guns.... moondog - 22/03/2013 07:29:52 PM 768 Views
Apparently you did not read Feinstein's, you know the one that started this whole thread... HyogaRott - 23/03/2013 06:26:57 PM 742 Views
i'm aware of her statements, you'll have to actually prove your point.... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:35:11 AM 649 Views
Her bill tried to eliminate my (and everone's) right to own all but 2,000 specific weapons. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:30:56 PM 733 Views
"A well-regulated militia...." moondog - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM 864 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:23:07 PM 748 Views
we are long past the point where defense against tyranny is feasible moondog - 26/03/2013 07:48:37 PM 739 Views
Feasibility is not the issue, it is the rule of law. HyogaRott - 27/03/2013 03:55:24 PM 793 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 818 Views
That would depend, something of equal value Isaac - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 715 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? moondog - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 982 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 729 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining moondog - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 794 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 878 Views
some answers moondog - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 1107 Views
Re: some answers Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 884 Views
Re: the NRA moondog - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 729 Views
This is a matter of POV bias Isaac - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 656 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then moondog - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 716 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining Isaac - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 713 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) moondog - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 654 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) Isaac - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 915 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding moondog - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 873 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap Isaac - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 894 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 1076 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try Isaac - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 710 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually moondog - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 695 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue Isaac - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 965 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... moondog - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 796 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you Isaac - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 663 Views
There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM 759 Views
the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems moondog - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM 782 Views
I have no problems with actually enforcing existing laws, in fact I want to see that before new 1 *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:17:40 AM 382 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce random thoughts - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 716 Views
as with most laws, some amount of grandfathering will probably be necessary moondog - 20/03/2013 05:34:57 PM 686 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 382 Views
I can't argue that random thoughts - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 722 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting moondog - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 791 Views
what is high capacity? random thoughts - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 683 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit moondog - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 712 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* Nighthawk - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 745 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes Jeordam - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 709 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 375 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* Jeordam - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 357 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 377 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* Nighthawk - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 350 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 794 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 727 Views
*NM* ironclad - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 380 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers Isaac - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 728 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 699 Views
So what's your solution? Smaller sentences? Or death penalty for everybody? Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 06:33:13 PM 710 Views
I don't have a truly viable one. I just have a bunch of ideas that no one would want to enact. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:49:58 PM 712 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book Isaac - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 739 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 679 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop Isaac - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 730 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* Ghavrel - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 364 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 874 Views
For what its worth.... Jeordam - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 689 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... callandor1000 - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 1005 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 997 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... callandor1000 - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 974 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 613 Views
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