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do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? moondog Send a noteboard - 05/03/2013 05:49:14 PM

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1: It was a mathematics example to illustrate how crappy Social Security actually serves the people. Besides, Social Security already takes 15% (7.5 directly form the individual), my example only shows what COULD have been done with just 4% (using all 15% the value is almost $5 million). As for showing the math, I have already given you all the variables and you can find the formulas on the web easily, though it is just as easy to find a calculator and skip the math by hand.

except that (a) your math is still not proven that somehow a minimum wage earner will be a millionaire by retirement simply by just siphoning $48/month (or 4% if you like) into an investment, (b) SS is a pre-tax deduction, so the employee never notices that money is missing, and (c) it's very very rare for a minimum wage earner to have $48/month of disposable income, and it's even rarer still if they dispose of that income on a retirement plan. when your choice is eat now or eat when/if you reach retirement age, i'm pretty sure eat now is the preferred option for all living creatures....


View original post2: Contrary to what you believe (I seriously doubt you know very much at all about it) long term investing in the "evil" stock market (most easily through mutual funds) provides easily predictable long term gains. Yes there are short term fluctuations, and also methods to deal with them (beginning with not putting any money in there that you might need in the next 5 years).

and now you are back to your condescending troll persona again, but i'll answer anyway...

through several job changes and an ex wife, i've had several 401(k)s and an IRA, all tied to various mutual funds. i used to be naive like you and think that mutual funds could survive the stock market fluctuations, because their average returns are typically positive. however, i've seen my 401(k) lose 15% over the course of a year and the IRA lose close to 40% to the point that it was worth less than the money i started it with. so tell me again how much money i would have had if i would just put my faith in the stock market?

good thing i didn't retire when my IRA lost 40% of its value, but i'm sure a good number of people did. and i'm sure they'd all love to hear your theory about how they could be millionaires by now if they only followed your investment advice :rolleyes:


View original post3: No we can not simply end Social Security tomorrow. But there are many different ideas on how to continue to support the people who foolishly allowed themselves to be dependent on it. Without trapping a brand new generation into something that is just simply BAD.

hey, i'm sorry we can't all be born into rich families like you. some of us have to work for a living, and those of us who DO work for a living have to figure out how to survive when we no longer have a regular income. unfortunately, the richest country in the western world has a lot of people like you who think that the best thing we can do for our poor and our elderly is to throw them to the wolves rather than have a government program to help take care of them through their struggles.

your motto seems to be "fuck everyone, i got mine". well, we tried that once before, and it's the reason we have things like SS in the first place. but of course it's BAD that we should demand that there be a minimum standard of living for everyone, no matter their ability to work. let's just throw away everything that makes america great so that the select few who can afford everything just take it all and leave the rest of us to fight for whatever crumbs they deign to allow us to have.

"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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Can You Name the Largest US Program to ANNUALLY Collect More Than It Spent for 75 Straight Years? Joel - 28/02/2013 11:03:18 PM 1303 Views
Medicare? *NM* Aisha - 28/02/2013 11:38:22 PM 521 Views
No, Medicare has only been around about half as long. Joel - 28/02/2013 11:56:32 PM 808 Views
Medicare has its own problems, and caused many more. You really do not want to have this debate. HyogaRott - 03/03/2013 03:03:15 PM 726 Views
No, I do not, because Medicare and torts are invariably scapegoated for all problems with healthcare Joel - 04/03/2013 12:52:37 AM 792 Views
I can argue with anyone on this (and have) btut first we need to break out that dictionary HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:45:06 AM 715 Views
I am sure you can and have; ability to form arguments does not automatically grant them validity. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:11 PM 780 Views
Like I said, short conversation, once everyone uses the same definitions. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:28:52 PM 774 Views
From the way you're shitting yourself with glee, I'm going to say Social Security. Cannoli - 01/03/2013 12:45:50 AM 901 Views
Hot dog, we have a wiener! Joel - 01/03/2013 01:40:18 AM 847 Views
Also unlike Ponzis, Social Security was not meant to profit—it just did anyway. For 75 years. Joel - 01/03/2013 01:55:46 AM 748 Views
It is a "Ponzi" by definition, any argument to the contrary just makes you look ignorant. HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:02:46 PM 819 Views
Wait: An insurer is saying insurance is a Ponzi scheme? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:56:30 AM 784 Views
You are making even lese sense than usual... Quite an acomplishment. *NM* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:31:39 AM 488 Views
Maybe, but my math usually checks, and I never have to explain what I omitted. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:55:50 PM 874 Views
My math ALWAYS "checks" - it isn't personal, you are just making absolutely no sense, *NM* HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:27:11 PM 429 Views
It's the world's greatest Ponzi scheme, since the government forces us to give money to it. Anonymous2000 - 01/03/2013 01:05:05 PM 741 Views
Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. Joel - 01/03/2013 03:53:02 PM 867 Views
Good lord my friend..... Anonymous2000 - 02/03/2013 04:19:35 AM 782 Views
I will just link what Isaac said; maybe then you will pay attention to it. Joel - 02/03/2013 04:56:34 AM 824 Views
I really think you terribly misread what I said *NM* Isaac - 02/03/2013 06:59:56 AM 430 Views
Yes he did. He has very poor reading comprehension skills. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 03/03/2013 01:07:59 AM 457 Views
I really do not think I did. Joel - 04/03/2013 01:43:02 AM 861 Views
I'm pretty confident you have Isaac - 04/03/2013 11:49:19 AM 846 Views
We evidently disagree on what constitutes a Ponzi scheme. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:27 PM 767 Views
No, I agree with a clear definiton, you seem not to want to absorb that Isaac - 11/03/2013 10:24:47 PM 911 Views
It is neither an investment nor fraudulent. Joel - 12/03/2013 02:34:09 AM 982 Views
Re: Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:22:34 PM 836 Views
Fraud="money contributed is NOT invested for the contributor, but instead redistributed to others"? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:51:30 AM 767 Views
You can try and misrepresent what I have said all you want, you are still wrong. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:45:24 AM 842 Views
Dude, how is QUOTING you misrepresenting you?! And why must I ALWAYS ask that in these threads? Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:18 PM 811 Views
Well, can you get more wrong? HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:45:08 PM 723 Views
Okay, that's a really weird or naive standard to judge SS by Isaac - 01/03/2013 05:25:11 PM 788 Views
Great; will you put that on a postcard to Cannoli, A2K, Rick Perry and the rest of your party? Joel - 01/03/2013 07:39:44 PM 815 Views
I don't think I'd be telling them anything they don't already know... I mostly agree with them Isaac - 02/03/2013 05:38:56 AM 926 Views
Means testing is flat out WRONG, and the contribution limit is a sticky debate HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:43:09 PM 739 Views
Tell that to him not me, I didn't express an opinion and my implied one obviously doesn't favor it Isaac - 02/03/2013 05:28:14 PM 871 Views
I was, I just hit the repy under the wrong post. He was the first to bering the two topics up. *NM* HyogaRott - 03/03/2013 04:09:34 AM 426 Views
It is insurance against old age poverty, not a longevity lottery. Joel - 04/03/2013 02:00:24 AM 844 Views
It is not insurance, it is a pension plan, that also contains an overpriced LT disability insurance. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:00:42 AM 845 Views
Social Security Insurance; says so right on the label. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:33 PM 982 Views
You can call it BedroomWindowVitamins but it does not change what it acutally IS. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:34:42 PM 763 Views
"Sustainable"=/="profitable;" bankruptcy was not always a given, as your fellows claim.. Joel - 04/03/2013 01:35:04 AM 742 Views
Sustainable often means profitable, they are not universally synonmous but both at once is ideal Isaac - 04/03/2013 12:25:45 PM 744 Views
That is the IDEAL, but NOT point: Sustainability needs no profit, yet profit ensures sustainability. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:48 PM 1198 Views
Your attacks on republican ideals would have more credit if you understood them random thoughts - 02/03/2013 04:27:34 AM 798 Views
An ironic charge, since their defenses of those ideals typically suffer from the same defect. Joel - 02/03/2013 04:51:32 AM 775 Views
I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you. nyah, nyah, nyah HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:58:10 PM 722 Views
"Unsustainable"=/="meeting monthly obligations for 75 YEARS and still having $2.5 trillion left." Joel - 04/03/2013 01:03:09 AM 841 Views
Please look up the definition of sustainable. Hint: "its worked so far" isn't it. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:25:19 AM 802 Views
"As it is currently constructed/funded" is one HELL of a qualifier. Joel - 04/03/2013 04:41:30 AM 861 Views
You just don't get it, or apparently are so in love with your political ideology you won't. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:58:15 AM 673 Views
I believe if you check civilizations record you will find the human population has steadily risen. Joel - 04/03/2013 05:08:38 AM 781 Views
*sigh* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 12:15:22 PM 730 Views
Birth RATES have fallen; POPULATION steadily rose in every period except the Black Deaths peak. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:36 PM 1003 Views
Re: Declining birth rates are the key HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:47:41 PM 830 Views
Ironic that you would make my point while arguing against random thoughts - 04/03/2013 06:12:29 PM 687 Views
? Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:59 PM 846 Views
you mistate his posistion and then rationalize that you know what he really meant random thoughts - 13/03/2013 12:06:44 PM 696 Views
aH yes the great liberal investmetn/retirement plan that offers me a NEGATIGVE rate of return... HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 11:51:50 AM 712 Views
Do you sincerely believe people earning $14,560/year can afford investing 4% of it? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:53:30 AM 876 Views
*sigh* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:43:08 AM 706 Views
I tried it with compound interest; $44.80/month at 4% for 50 years still does not get to $1.25 mill. Joel - 04/03/2013 04:24:51 AM 789 Views
Here are some clues. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:37:39 AM 650 Views
It is math, not the Riddle of the Sphinx: EIther it adds up or does not. Joel - 04/03/2013 05:02:39 AM 804 Views
Math is simple - Either you know how to calculate it or you don't HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 11:55:24 AM 880 Views
Indeed. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:59 PM 789 Views
Re: Indeed. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 05:00:10 PM 974 Views
SS is supposed to supplement a proper pension, not provide your sole income after retirement moondog - 05/03/2013 03:53:03 AM 669 Views
Did you bother to actually read anything? HyogaRott - 05/03/2013 02:32:16 PM 737 Views
do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? moondog - 05/03/2013 05:49:14 PM 804 Views
Re: do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? --- yeah, I've BEEN there. HyogaRott - 05/03/2013 08:01:33 PM 777 Views
how about respond to a post with logic and civility instead of being a troll for once? moondog - 05/03/2013 11:03:00 PM 860 Views
All I have used is civility and logic, or least as much civility as was warrented. HyogaRott - 06/03/2013 04:28:04 AM 811 Views
yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... moondog - 08/03/2013 07:22:24 PM 852 Views
Re: yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... HyogaRott - 10/03/2013 01:42:26 PM 723 Views
i'm not going to keep going in circles so i will finish with this.... moondog - 11/03/2013 10:08:53 PM 1069 Views
No loss. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:37:41 PM 663 Views
"Rah! Rah! Rah!" Can we please cut out all this blather and bile? Stephen - 05/03/2013 11:53:41 PM 738 Views
spoken like a true enemy of the state! moondog - 06/03/2013 12:54:38 AM 710 Views
Re: spoken like a true enemy of the state! Stephen - 08/03/2013 03:04:37 PM 766 Views
I was not trolling, but clarifying. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:48 PM 787 Views
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