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Oh, certainly; I just felt like I was dragging you with me kicking and screaming. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/02/2013 01:05:14 AM
Paul said, in one of his NT epistles, that he did not allow women authority in the Church. Yet GOD appointed Deborah a Judge, both spiritual and secular ruler of Israel, and when Josiah found the old copy of the Torah, it was the prophetess Huldah rather than Jermiah whom he asked what to do about it. So who is right, God, Whom scripture tells us made several women prophetess' and spiritual authorities, or Paul, who says in scripture said he did not allow women ANY spiritual authority? Typically, I tend to side with the OT prophets who DID represent their canonized words as divinely inspired over the NT apostle who just as explicitly stated—in scripture—that a number of his scriptural statements wree NOT divinely inspired.


"Paul said, in one of his NT epistles, that he did not allow women authority in the Church." Paul said that he wasn't into it. Paul didn't say that God wasn't into it. As you pointed out, God Himself (as it were) put Deborah in charge. Josiah, one of the good kings, asked Huldah what to do. We know full well that God gifts those whom He gifts. Deborah & Huldah obviously had the giftings from God, and the willingness in and of themselves to be obedient to what God had called them to do.

So how does Paul and his anti-women thing work in? *shrug* I'm not sure, but I'm sure that Paul got to discuss this with God at length. But it doesn't change the fact that God inspired Paul to put ink to paper in that exact way. Why? Maybe so we could discuss it...that we could dialogue about it...that we could learn a valueable lesson in the fact that Paul's personal opinions were his personal opinions (for whatever reason).

That was very possibly it; if so, there is every reason to believe the Holy Spirit moved the first canonical councils to include it with the rest for that reason.

Few apostles are more highly esteemed than Paul, and there is good reason for that, but just as occupying his era gave him unique insights into the Churchs formation, it also made him a product of those times, when the status of women was not what it is now. If such a theological giant was not wholly immune to sexism (and his attitude toward women, as toward many others, was as radically liberal then as it is radically conservative now,) even with his encyclopedic knowledge of Jewish history including Deborah and Huldah, what does that say of the modern controversy over female priests? Mainly, I think, that the resistance to them is more a matter of centuries old chauvinistic tradition than divine will.

The point is, how far does that rationale extend, what, if any, are its limits? Are we to believe that God, knowing Christians of later centuries would heavily weight every word Paul wrote, insured Paul clearly identified each of those words that was not divinely inspired? That He made sure none of Pauls personal opinions not clearly identified as such survived? That He further ensured none of those who compiled the competing canons centuries later ever overlooked or misunderstood His guidance, or fell prey to the same kind of human error Paul displayed in forbidding women the same priestly authority he knew Deborah and Huldah held?

I keep returning to the same core problem: The NT canon was NOT written under the same sense of divine inspiration as the OT, or at least, not all of it was. Those who compiled the first NT canon deliberately sought epistles they felt had divine inspiration, excluding all they felt lacked it, even if believed genuine. Yet we cannot assume them infallible in light of their inclusion of NT scripture that explicitly states it is not the word of God; none can truthfully say, "these words I speak are not mine," and "God is not a man, that he should lie." Perhaps we are set questions so we will seek their answer, and at least find AN answer by the Grace of God.

I'm a big believer that God gifts those whom He gifts. I fully acknowledge that there are those out there who have the <insert gift here> to do something, and that their willingness to do what God has gifted them to do should be the only factor. I certainly don't want to stand before God and say that I stood in the way of so and so because they weren't <insert physical trait here> enough.

~Jeordam

A wise position. I want to be clear I do not dismiss all scripture, or even "just" the NT, out of hand. I am understandably uncomfortable second-guessing it, and avoid that when possible, but the option is often unavailable. New Testament authors (most notably Paul, the principal one) make it easy when identifying a precept as personal rather than doctrinal, but that opens the door to reconsidering those unidentified either way. Where it is unclear if the author felt a passage divinely inspired (like it or not, the NT has many such,) I rely on passages that ARE unambiguously inspired by God, and on the Holy Spirit through prayer, contemplation and fellowship, then err on the side of caution. If a passages ultimate source is unclear but not onerous, there is every reason to treat it as divinely inspired, and none to do otherwise.

As Protestants, we have a unique corollary catechism of our own: Sola scriptura, sola fide, sola gratia, solus Christus, soli Deo gloria. Anything and everything is consistent with all five, or inconsistent with Protestant Christianity; anything and everything that appears to conform with some but contradict any only APPEARS to conform with any. The word and will of God, however expressed, will—must—always be in accord and harmony, just as the body of Christ is not divided against itself.
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This message last edited by Joel on 14/02/2013 at 01:05:40 AM
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As a catholic, I am surprised, but please by the Pope's decision..... - 12/02/2013 03:05:34 AM 650 Views
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One mistake in my original post..... - 13/02/2013 01:27:48 AM 607 Views
Re: As a catholic, I am surprised, but please by the Pope's decision..... - 13/02/2013 01:35:14 AM 564 Views
Re: As a catholic, I am surprised, but please by the Pope's decision..... - 13/02/2013 03:45:23 PM 648 Views
Luke or Paul? - 13/02/2013 04:36:27 PM 584 Views
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Re: I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this point. - 14/02/2013 11:12:34 PM 597 Views
Hate to jump you again but are you sure you mean Timothy? - 14/02/2013 11:54:00 PM 626 Views
Yep, I ment Timothy - 15/02/2013 04:18:21 AM 592 Views
Re: Yep, I ment Timothy - 15/02/2013 11:03:16 AM 619 Views
If "the bible is still the bible," then what of Deborah, Huldah and Phoebe, to name but a few? - 13/02/2013 06:17:44 PM 709 Views
Why wouldn't it still be devinely inspired? - 13/02/2013 06:44:07 PM 632 Views
Um, because then God was lying when He inspired someone to write "this is not Gods commandment." - 13/02/2013 07:42:15 PM 601 Views
You're missing a really key point - 13/02/2013 09:13:32 PM 652 Views
Let us take it full circle: The ecclesiastical authority of women - 13/02/2013 10:21:26 PM 676 Views
Shouldn't you be able to answer this question from what you just wrote? - 13/02/2013 11:02:28 PM 668 Views
Oh, certainly; I just felt like I was dragging you with me kicking and screaming. - 14/02/2013 01:05:14 AM 633 Views
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Heh, yeah, I guess I slightly mischaracterized what you were saying. - 13/02/2013 05:54:05 PM 656 Views
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Oops, I meant to reply here - As a catholic.....my take. - 12/02/2013 03:39:42 AM 683 Views
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