Does the Second Amendment protect the rights of felons and the mentally incompetent to have guns?
Joel Send a noteboard - 22/12/2012 02:35:16 AM
The Second Amendment does not require a valid EXCUSE to have any weapon; it requires a valid excuse to DENY one. Failure to pass a mental health/criminal background check, receive adequate training and certification of same, or license and register the weapon all qualify, IMHO, but the guns inherent lethality does not, not unless we also ban swords, knives, bats and every other lethal weapon. You always said you did not need a gun because of your mag light, but it could easily shatter a skull or rupture an organ: Should you therefore be prohibited from owning it? Are its self-defense applications insufficient cause to exempt you from that ban?
In a classroom debate in high school, just to make trouble, I asked the presenters if they thought Easton or Hillerich & Bradley should be liable if someone uses their sporting products to kill someone. When the other kid said yes, I pointed out that those companies make baseball bats, not guns. It's all fairly silly, IMO, because like it or not, the 2nd Amendment is the law of the land, and however you parse the militia clause, the fact is that an independant clause explicitly prohibits infringments on "the right of the people". The need (and precedent) for a Constitutional amendment to ban drugs did not stop the government from doing so, of course, much less waging war on them without an exit strategy (talk about your quagmires! ), so whatever the legality, the practicalities might be a different issue. But legally, to restrict gun ownership, we should have a Constitutional Amendment."Restrict"=/="infringe." We can and do set all kinds of conditions for having ALL guns without banning ANY.
As to the militia clause, it is the Second Amendments whole basis. It is GRAMMATICALLY dependent on the other clause, but that one is LOGICALLY dependent on it. Saying, "a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," equals saying, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state." Effects are superfluous absent cause, and the Second Amendment is superfluous absent militias. The Framers wanted an armed citizenry, but also wanted that arming ORGANIZED; had they wanted anarchy, they would not have bent over backwards to ensure the nations leaders were not decided by universal adult suffrage.
All that aside, and whether we like it or not, Mao was correct to say political power comes out of the barrel of a gun, and gun rights advocates are correct to say the entire Bill of Rights ultimately rests on the Second Amendment. Again I note there can be little doubt what the Framers intended by the Second Amendment
Not to mention it would be a rather absurd abberration for, in the midst of an enumeration of special protections for citizens, particularly against the government, for one Amendment to explicitly state the right of soldiers to keep and bear arms. The National Guard definitely falls into the latter category, and the idea that the Amendment pertains to a state-sponsored militia as opposed to a national army is equally absurd, given the explicit ban on states waging war or maintaining their own armies in peace time. Limiting the 2nd Amendment to ANY government-related forces is akin to suggesting the 1st only protects government publications or the right of government personnel to assemble peacefully.
"Militia"=/="army." Trained and armed but martially inactive private citizens to levy in time of war are not a standing army, else all fifty National Guards would violate the Constitutions ban on state armies in peacetime. The Constitution, as you well know, focused heavily on limiting FEDERAL rather than STATE government, so the Second Amendment empowering state militias to resist federal tyranny just as they did during the Revolution is logical. I have often contended the Constitution requires the federal government protect citizens from state government tyranny only to have you counter that it leaves everything to state discretion except what it explicitly reserves to the federal government, per the Tenth Amendment. I still disagree, but if you are conceding the point now we must revisit MANY old discussions.
given that the American Revolution began at Lexington and Concord, when the British Army tried to confiscate guns the militias used to resist government tyranny, and the militias met them in battle to prevent it. If the Founding Fathers did not intend the public to have access to military weaponry they would have remained loyal British subjects.
My own interpretation of the language of the militia clause is that "security of a free state" does not imply protection of independence or sovereignty against foreign powers, but retention of individual liberties against the state state itself. In modern uage, it would read "A well-armed citizen body being necessary to prevent a free state from turning tyrannical, the right of the people..." Since the Preamble speaks of the Federal Government being created to "provide for the common defense" and uses the word SECURE in relation to individual liberty, it seems that's what they mean in the wording of the 2nd Amendment. Since that preceding clause and the apparent original intent of the Framers would suggest military weaponry, it would then follow that under the spirit (if not the explicit letter of the law) that hunting weapons, target shooting and other sporting-intended guns and bows, and personal self-defense or home protection weapons are NOT protected. While the letter of the Second Amendment protects anything that could be used as a weapon (hey...I wonder if you can use a 32 oz soda to kill a man - make Bloomberg back off), the spirit implied by the militia clause would appear to restrict its protection exclusively to military weapons and anti-government weapons, such as high-powered rifles, rocket launchers, anti-tank & aircraft weaponry, and especially, cop-killer bullets. A burglar or mugger (Omar Little notwithstanding) is highly unlikely to be wearing a bullet-proof vest, so armor-piercing rounds known as "cop-killers" rather than that name being a reason to ban them, would seem to be exactly the kind of thing the Founding Fathers wanted the citizens to have access to.
The Preamble does not invoke INDIVIDUAL liberty, though I would say the Constitutions explicit efforts to protect minority (especially those of an individual, the ultimate minority) strongly implies it; I am not a strict constructionist.
I share your view of the militia clause as applied to federal, but not state, government. It is easy to imagine one or more state militias rising to resist federal tyranny; they did in 1776, and many still feel they did again in 1861. It is impossible to imagine citizens of one or more states individually rising to resist state tyranny. Not only does the Constitution require the federal government intervene on their behalf (which should have been the Civil Wars pretext,) it would (as it has) surely do so via the US Army and/or National Guard. In every case where individual citizens revolted against state government the federal government would deploy the military to aid either:
1) Citizens resisting state tyranny, which could consequently not hope to endure, or
2) Aid states imposing tyranny, producing the resistance to federal tyranny for which the Second Amendment exists.
In neither case does the Second Amendment empower militias to resist state tyranny by force. The very notion is peculiar to the point of contradiction: That militias, responsible to and commanded by state governments, should forcibly oppose them. No lesser light than John Adams, godfather of American conservatism, evidently agreed when he stated that "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, counties or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."
That is not to say the Framers were unanimous in their view of militias and the right to bear arms; the above qoute comes from a legal article indicating their views of each were often in direct conflict. It suggests that "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" reflects a compromise as much as a syllogism: Conservatives/Federalists, fearing anarchy and craving the rule of law preventing it, favored language empowering militias responsible to state governments, with no provision for an individual right to arms; liberals/Anti-Federalists favored language empowering a universal citizens right to bear arms, with no provision for state organized militias.
The Framers employed the time honored "solution" of all politicians: Their desperate attempt to satisfy both sides produced a compromise that satisfied neither. Perhaps it should not surprise us that we are no more equal to resolving the issue than our nations founders were.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
When guns are a big national issue, how do reporters & pundits not know facts about them?
21/12/2012 05:33:14 PM
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You don't hunt by walking into a classroom and shooting 20 deer
21/12/2012 05:56:16 PM
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You're actually not right on that one
21/12/2012 07:49:53 PM
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That wasn't the point I was making
21/12/2012 09:49:40 PM
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You should probably clarify it then
21/12/2012 10:47:26 PM
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His post was perfectly clear. Yours seemed like a response to an entirely different post.
21/12/2012 10:53:39 PM
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Explain that remark, it is not obvious to me *NM*
21/12/2012 11:00:10 PM
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I think
21/12/2012 11:13:34 PM
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Thats' easy, there is simply no such thing as a 'hunting rifle'
21/12/2012 11:17:41 PM
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I'd say the expert gunsmith
21/12/2012 11:28:02 PM
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I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too?
22/12/2012 12:38:45 AM
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Re: I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too?
22/12/2012 01:00:18 AM
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Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me
22/12/2012 01:15:08 AM
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Re: Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me
22/12/2012 09:35:38 AM
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I thought I was being perfectly clear.
21/12/2012 10:57:35 PM
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A bit of an aside, but I was reading that the gun used in the attack can be bought in Canada too.
21/12/2012 06:14:01 PM
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you're largely correct, which is why we need stronger laws on ownership not guns per se
21/12/2012 09:39:14 PM
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I can't think of a better reason than self defense
21/12/2012 10:33:26 PM
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He is right about Australia
21/12/2012 10:46:27 PM
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No kidding
21/12/2012 10:59:28 PM
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If you knew all that
21/12/2012 11:02:38 PM
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Because I used wiki of course
21/12/2012 11:21:25 PM
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He said ""self defense" is not a valid excuse to own a lethal weapon"
21/12/2012 11:34:59 PM
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Yes,which is un-cited, but I did prove it's a valid excuse to use one, so...
22/12/2012 12:36:19 AM
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The difference between allowing someone to defend themselves with a gun they have
22/12/2012 01:09:40 AM
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Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind.
22/12/2012 01:17:25 AM
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Re: Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind.
22/12/2012 09:51:51 AM
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A wood chipper isn't a gun, and evidence without proof isn't evidence
22/12/2012 06:10:34 PM
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If only you'd asked him for a citation rather than just saying you thought he was wrong eh? *NM*
23/12/2012 12:29:30 AM
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I think you are on the right track, but to the wrong destination; "lethal weapon" is redundant.
21/12/2012 11:05:29 PM
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My read is that the 2nd Amendment not only allows, but mandates, cop-killer bullets.
22/12/2012 12:45:04 AM
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Does the Second Amendment protect the rights of felons and the mentally incompetent to have guns?
22/12/2012 02:35:16 AM
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Court rulings have determined that your Constitutional Rights can be restricted for felony/insanity *NM*
23/12/2012 12:59:31 PM
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Activist judges should not make law.
23/12/2012 02:04:42 PM
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I agree, but the courts have already ruled that way so we are stuck. *NM*
26/12/2012 03:03:35 PM
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Then I guess we need the courts to rule gun owners need screening, training and licensing.
26/12/2012 03:46:05 PM
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No, if you want to restrict the 2nd (or any other amendment) amend the Constitution
26/12/2012 07:56:19 PM
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I do not want to restrict the Second Amendment, only enact the regulations it explictly allows.
26/12/2012 08:50:09 PM
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I disagree with your interpretation. The simple EXISTANCE of the BoR makes it binding on the states
27/12/2012 03:46:17 PM
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"Congress shall make no law..." restricts the STATES? How, exactly?
28/12/2012 03:03:19 PM
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The 2nd amendment does not mention Congress in any way. There is that reading issue again.
28/12/2012 10:02:41 PM
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You said, "the Bill of Rights," not "the Second Amendment."
28/12/2012 11:10:00 PM
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Copy-N-Paste, get over it. we are specifically discussing the 2nd amendment, not everything.
29/12/2012 02:24:30 PM
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Some semi-autos are easily modified for full auto fire, making the distinction one w/o a difference.
21/12/2012 10:53:59 PM
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Correction: virtually all semi-automatics are easily convertable
21/12/2012 11:23:35 PM
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I have seen nothing on turning a semi-auto BAR into a fully automatic one.
22/12/2012 01:11:12 AM
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What's a BAR? In any event, link a diagram and I'll let you know
22/12/2012 01:26:31 AM
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Confusingly, there are two: The BAR you and I think of, and the "Browning BAR," a current semi-auto
22/12/2012 01:07:30 PM
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Department of Redundancy Department gets to name a lot of stuff, like "Milky Way Galaxy"
22/12/2012 05:01:45 PM
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It only bothers me when people who know better speak of "the Glieseian solar system."
26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM
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Both terms are pretty stuck now
26/12/2012 10:48:38 PM
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You realize that encourages rather than discourages my opposition to the usage, right?
27/12/2012 01:23:15 AM
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Well I can't say it surprises
27/12/2012 04:29:06 AM
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Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands.
22/12/2012 03:02:18 AM
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Re: Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands.
22/12/2012 04:12:30 AM
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Yes people can always still kill each other, humans are very ingenuitive
22/12/2012 04:42:04 AM
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I took a driving exam when I was 16, and have never been tested since, nor will I ever be.
23/12/2012 01:17:05 PM
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Never is a long time; just renewing a license requires retaking the eye exam most places.
23/12/2012 02:16:54 PM
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Rather hard to do an eye exam online or through the mail.
26/12/2012 03:08:06 PM
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Yes, it is, which is why I have always had to go by DPS for a new license.
26/12/2012 03:50:04 PM
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Tennessee and Florida pass them out like candy. For several years TN offered a no ID license
26/12/2012 08:02:39 PM
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I still find it odd they require no eye test, that either allows the blind drivers licenses.
26/12/2012 08:58:57 PM
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Oh yeah, we have wandered off course *shrug*
27/12/2012 03:55:55 PM
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Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing.
28/12/2012 03:35:34 PM
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Re: Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing.
28/12/2012 10:14:32 PM
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If you can prove someone voted illegally, call the ACLU and claim your $1000.
28/12/2012 11:18:38 PM
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puhleeze.... election fraud is a fact. Pick a state, ANY state, ANY election...
29/12/2012 02:41:40 PM
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Clip size is meaningless, semi-autos and even revolvers can be reloaded VERY quickly. *NM*
23/12/2012 01:20:59 PM
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1997 North Hollywood Shootout
22/12/2012 04:07:39 AM
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typical NRA bullshit response
22/12/2012 04:53:40 AM
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typical Moondog bullshit response
23/12/2012 01:06:12 PM
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of course! there is no connection between having a gun and shooting someone. got it
23/12/2012 02:33:18 PM
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There is no corelation between decidng to kill someone and what tool you use.
26/12/2012 03:11:08 PM
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By that logic no one needs a gun for self-defense; a coffee mug is perfectly adequate.
26/12/2012 09:06:51 PM
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I can kill you with my coffee mug... RESPECT THE MUG but I wouldn't, I might spill the coffee.
27/12/2012 04:08:52 PM
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So you are saying you do not need a gun then? I will keep mine anyway, thanks.
28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM
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You covered a bunch of different things, and completely misrepresentted what I wrote
28/12/2012 10:28:24 PM
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Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones.
28/12/2012 11:44:19 PM
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Re: Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones.
29/12/2012 03:31:01 PM
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Laws against murder failed to prevent that, too; clearly they are ineffective and should be repealed
22/12/2012 06:02:24 AM
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Such laws were never intended for prevention, they define actions that will be punished. *NM*
23/12/2012 12:57:57 PM
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So do laws against getting a gun without screening, training and certification.
23/12/2012 02:01:32 PM
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Then CHANGE the Constitution, don't ignore it. *NM*
26/12/2012 03:12:11 PM
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I am not suggesting either changing or ignoring the Constitution.
26/12/2012 04:01:02 PM
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Yes you are.
26/12/2012 08:06:01 PM
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Learn logic, and stop needlessly trying to teach me grammar.
26/12/2012 08:55:25 PM
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Lear to read, and I won't have to
27/12/2012 04:28:59 PM
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Ironically, you misspelled "learn."
28/12/2012 05:15:17 PM
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I know, I thought about going back and fixing the typo, but thought it was funny so I left it. *NM*
28/12/2012 10:34:06 PM
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2 commas or 4 makes no difference one is a 12D the other is a sentance.
28/12/2012 10:55:31 PM
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It makes a huge difference when (incorrectly) claiming to know the text.
28/12/2012 11:31:51 PM
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and by REGULATED, the authors meeant "able to use it effectively"
29/12/2012 03:47:57 PM
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You are wrong.
22/12/2012 12:14:40 PM
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That explains much; I read somewhere Brits are averse to it.
22/12/2012 01:17:15 PM
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What bemuses me about this thing with Adam Lanza, is that his mother had 5 registered guns
23/12/2012 07:10:26 AM
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She also had many knives, and blunt objecs around the house. Tools are only as good as the user
23/12/2012 01:10:58 PM
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So clearly she wasn't prepared enough... btw, do we know she was sleeping?
27/12/2012 10:52:03 AM
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That she 1) was in bed, 2) had guns for self-defense and 3) was shot 4 times strongly suggests sleep
28/12/2012 11:49:20 PM
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She was asleep with him in the house.
23/12/2012 02:24:47 PM
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LOOK, look, there is another one...
26/12/2012 03:13:45 PM
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I find the absolutist ant/pro-gun positions equally dangerous and absurd.
26/12/2012 04:20:37 PM
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So we should just *kinda* ignore the Constitution *this* time... But what about NEXT time...
26/12/2012 08:08:12 PM
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No, we should enact gun regulation the Constitution explicitly empowers.
26/12/2012 09:02:12 PM
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Which would be... NONE. *NM*
27/12/2012 04:31:53 PM
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"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...."
28/12/2012 05:14:49 PM
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Your point being?
27/12/2012 10:47:29 AM
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I am certain it would have been better, though not good, if she had been awake and shot him.
27/12/2012 02:16:13 PM
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So the situation of Nancy and Adam shooting at each other
28/12/2012 07:44:12 AM
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No, I believe they were both mentally incompetent to have guns; that does not mean EVERYONE is.
28/12/2012 02:19:51 PM
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As a father, I would rather kill my own child than have him kill 26 other people.
27/12/2012 04:35:02 PM
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And as a father, you are somehow clairvoyant?
28/12/2012 07:43:08 AM
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Nice flippant unthinking reply, you and moondog should get together. *NM*
28/12/2012 04:55:14 PM
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How is my reply flippant? Your statement was unthinking, not mine.
29/12/2012 06:59:04 AM
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YOU asked if it would have been better for her to kill her own child instead, I answered.
29/12/2012 03:52:02 PM
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I asked if a shoot out between mother and son had been better, not whether she should have killed
29/12/2012 08:54:09 PM
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You make no sense.
31/12/2012 06:07:50 PM
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I make no sense to you because you probably just don't understand my point.
01/01/2013 08:09:11 AM
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Maybe the heat death of the univers occurs before you finally have a cohearant thought
01/01/2013 07:34:31 PM
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You do realize that resorting to personal attacks reveal an inability to make sound arguments? *NM*
02/01/2013 06:01:33 PM
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That is not an ad hominem attack, and your prior post was not very logically coherent
02/01/2013 08:59:16 PM
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Instead of actually showing why my arguments would be incoherent or why I'm immature, he just said
05/01/2013 02:02:23 AM
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