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I dunno, your response suggests you figured it out pretty quickly. Joel Send a noteboard - 18/12/2012 05:08:12 PM
If you believe that in the last 30 years Americans have become more selfish, self-absorbed and materialistic I am not going to argue it. If you want to point out that our sense of community has been eroded and the traditional support of churches is waning along with traditional churches themselves, I am not going to argue it. If you're going to go on and try to score cheap political points by using it to make some radical socioeconomic or political point, then you're full of shit and we both know it - I will be content to know, for you to know I know, and to know you know I know.

However, no one's going to argue with you if your point is just that people are petty and selfish.

You make some good valid points of your own as well, as you did after the Aurora shootings when you noted the much greater difficulty of involuntarily committing people since the reforms of the '70s.

However, your reference to our declining sense of community is the critical factor I had in mind. The Churchs declining influence is just one part of that, because the US, like all nations, is more than merely many diverese religious groups living within the same geographic borders. Healthy competition is one thing, but competition becomes unhealthy and destructive when it reaches the point of pitting each of a nations residents against each other in an unrestricted, winner-take-all contest for success by any means necessary. The Church did not popularize that; rather than causing it, since the late '70s the Church has often been simply another of its victims.

Many congregations and ministers have been infiltrated and corrupted by ravening political wolves in sheeps doctrinal clothing. If you want to criticize anyone for injecting personal political agenda into inappropriate venues, call preachers of the "prosperity gospel," then Albert Mohler, William Donovan, Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed. When the Southern Baptist Convention splintered into separate denominations because a small group orchestrates a takeover of its leadership for purely political reasons, a NC church expels members who refused to vote for a specific presidential candidate, and bishops deny Communion to politicians who support abortion rights, whom is forsaking whom? Many churches have told political dissenters to GTFO, and the response has often been "gladly."

Where does that leave the AMERICAN community, within the Church or anywhere else? Personal responsibility is a fine and vital thing, but does not justify social irresponsibility. If we continue attaching Somebody Elses Problem markers to the disenfranchised and ostracized we can expect more alienation and less empathy. That is not some profound insight, just basic common sense. Indoctrinate people with the belief anything goes because it is a dog-eat-dog world, and they start munching indiscriminately. I sincerely hope and pray most Americans do not need to lose a friend or family member before accepting that, sooner or later, this is a problem for ALL Americans (i.e. the national community.)

We need to stop encouraging violent acts, and I do not mean Americas overhyped so-called "culture of violence," be it hunters and self-defense advocates or entertainment. The entertainment industrys only agenda is profits from meeting audience demands, so the prevalence of sex and violence in the media is the effect, not cause, of societys obsession with both. The tacit concern in a generation of warnings about alienation is that it BREEDS dangerous mental illness by destroying empathy and handing out triggers for psychotic breaks like carnies hand out raffle tickets.

You are right we need better mental health diagnosis, and treatment, but the latter is not available at the emergency rooms so many assure us adequately meet the health needs of the poor (while passing the cost along to the insured.) What good is diagnosing dangerous mental illness if the cost of exam, consultation and treatment bankrupts the patients family? That prevents no dangerous alienation in the mentally ill, only encourages it in their previously healthy close relatives.

With regard to murder and alienations influence on and by media, consider "John Q" and "Falling Down." Neither was any more graphically violent than the last generations "Apocalypse Now" or "Patton." "John Q" dealt with a man holding a hospital hostage to get his son life-saving treatment otherwise unobtainable since he lost his employer insurance after being reduced from a full time to part time employee. Whether that was mental illness is debatable, but, if it was, it was TRIGGERED by alienation of a previously rational but increasingly desperate man. "Falling Down" concerned a mans frustrated and ALIENATED desperation at his lifes disintegration when his patriotically motivated defense contractor career ended because he was overskilled and undereducated (or vice versa; he cannot recall which.)

Neither film concerned the Church, but both are relevant because they DID concern violent alienation, and because, again, Hollywood does not tell audiences what they want to see, it makes what they not only tolerate but DEMAND seeing. Unless we want more murderers disbelievingly asking, "I'M the bad guy...?" as they confront police with a gun in their hand, it is past time we made them EVERYONES problem ere they do it for us. The problem with "John Q" and "Falling Down" was not their violence, but Hollywoods willingness to spend millions on them, certain of a healthy profit due to the publics easy identification with the protagonists.

That has many political implications and consequences; how much are we willing to pay to ignore them, and how long do we think we can? Note the first person plural; America should use it more often, and stop deriding it as Marxism. Communism need not require communism, but nations require community.
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This message last edited by Joel on 18/12/2012 at 05:21:59 PM
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20 children killed in latest US school shooting - 15/12/2012 12:35:42 AM 934 Views
i know 2 people with kids there, one of them has lost their 5 year old. this is too close to home - 15/12/2012 12:39:26 AM 559 Views
*NM* - 16/12/2012 07:16:19 AM 265 Views
It is absolutely terrible. - 15/12/2012 01:51:38 AM 589 Views
I think you're largely right. - 15/12/2012 03:48:59 AM 548 Views
I agree. - 15/12/2012 04:46:45 AM 589 Views
Re: It is absolutely terrible. - 15/12/2012 12:49:34 PM 509 Views
I do think you're right on this - 15/12/2012 02:24:43 PM 552 Views
whoop - 15/12/2012 04:35:01 AM 702 Views
So horrible. - 15/12/2012 05:53:46 AM 473 Views
I lived 20 mins from there. I'm shocked. I'm even heading back there in 4 days.... - 15/12/2012 02:08:28 PM 509 Views
one of the big problems with "wait for a better day" - 15/12/2012 03:45:53 PM 492 Views
Re: one of the big problems with "wait for a better day" - 15/12/2012 06:53:51 PM 676 Views
Maybe when we stop making media celebrities out of these murderers.. - 16/12/2012 05:36:19 PM 503 Views
Nope, won't happen. - 16/12/2012 06:37:11 PM 600 Views
For each of those 30 years sociologists have warned of the growing danger of growing alienation. - 16/12/2012 10:05:28 PM 575 Views
I don't know what you mean, though. - 17/12/2012 05:53:44 PM 529 Views
I dunno, your response suggests you figured it out pretty quickly. - 18/12/2012 05:08:12 PM 591 Views
Well, I more or less agree with everything you said *NM* - 19/12/2012 01:23:26 AM 236 Views
if they were after fame, they would probably all have tried to stay alive after killing everyone - 16/12/2012 10:01:50 PM 485 Views
One need not be living to be famous. - 16/12/2012 10:08:12 PM 527 Views
actually, i'm pretty sure you're wrong on this - 17/12/2012 05:38:07 PM 505 Views
"Live fast, die young and leave a good-looking corpse," "it's better to burn out than fade away" etc - 18/12/2012 03:25:23 PM 628 Views
what do your examples all have in common? - 18/12/2012 08:42:59 PM 540 Views
I frequently confuse that detail of Hinckleys shooting with Chapmans, sorry. - 18/12/2012 08:59:25 PM 599 Views
you are going to have to define "many" - 18/12/2012 10:13:33 PM 540 Views
Well, it is a relative term, and not an all-encompassing one. - 26/12/2012 07:04:25 PM 583 Views
Billy Joel song titles? - 19/12/2012 09:03:22 PM 553 Views

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