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Your hypothetical doesn't stand up in the real world, however. Tom Send a noteboard - 14/12/2012 02:46:23 PM
Manufacturers build factories in South Carolina, and Alabama, and Tennessee, and other places that don't favor unions or collective bargaining, and they pay their workers a little bit less than what union shops would pay. The difference after deducting the cost of union dues is actually negligible. They know what they are doing - they need people who are responsible and who WANT to work there, who WANT to keep their jobs, in order to build good cars.

There is a point where you can't cut wages and still attract people to work (or at least people who aren't brain damaged). That is what having the free market set wages is all about. When it costs more to ship from China, then the US becomes an attractive location again.

My point is not that unions need to go away (though they way they are presently structured, that would be a good thing), but that unions can't stop or affect a global phenomenon. They can bitch all they want about how great they are, but all they do is get themselves unemployed.

Unions don't help workers' pay on their own. The law of supply and demand ultimately determines everything. When the US built everything (i.e., had a monopoly on supply of goods), unions had the leverage to dictate labor contracts. The US worker had a monopoly on the labor pool as well.

Now, the US produces a great deal, but expressed as a percentage of worldwide output it has shrunk dramatically, and we do much more with fewer workers (unions helped drive Detroit to automate large portions of their industry to eliminate the need for lots of workers). Union shops started producing work of lesser quality than non-union shops, undercutting any benefit.

If unions keep losing (and they will), it is not because management is "waging a war" on them, but because they have no effective leverage. If they strike, the company will just look for other places to put new facilities (including overseas) or, in the case of financially insolvent companies like Hostess, just sell the intellectual property to someone else who can start up in a place where unions aren't looked on kindly.

And as for "right to work", forcing someone who doesn't want to join a union to be in one is just perverse.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1356 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 697 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 639 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 680 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 677 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 615 Views
Dude, that's insane. - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 678 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 564 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 618 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 716 Views
The good and the bad of unions: - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 793 Views
Double post. - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 852 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 613 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 404 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 710 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 599 Views
- 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 822 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 720 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 742 Views
one point i need to address here: - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 566 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 773 Views
it's great? - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 652 Views
Pissed off people.... - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 568 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 694 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 556 Views
but that's my point exactly - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 609 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 326 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 590 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 583 Views
So let me get this straight. - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 654 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 600 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 641 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 606 Views
That would be an interesting study... - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 589 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 552 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 635 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 602 Views
How is that wrong? - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 570 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 586 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 583 Views
A brilliant argument... - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 657 Views
Your hypothetical doesn't stand up in the real world, however. - 14/12/2012 02:46:23 PM 646 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 581 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 517 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 593 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 564 Views
i'll take you one further.... - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 521 Views
I have suggested that before - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 573 Views
so you did. sorry about that! - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 539 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 576 Views
funny thing about that..... - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 516 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 593 Views
What do you want me to say? - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 695 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 315 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 638 Views
This must be a trying time for you. - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 590 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 280 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 733 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 557 Views

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