Active Users:1141 Time:23/11/2024 01:53:25 AM
Your argument is completely fallacious. Tom Send a noteboard - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM
It's very simple. The United States, in the second half of the Nineteenth Century, quickly became the world's largest economy as the Industrial Revolution expanded at full tilt. The new industrial reality was that workers were not protected from severe bodily harm or death and were exploited in various ways, from low wages to being paid in credits at a monopoly "company store". This was all generally bad, and unions arose to combat it. That was good. In fact, I'll go even farther and say that American unions in particular chose the best possible path, steering away from the socialism and syndicalism of European unions in favor of collective bargaining.

America's growth continued, and after World War II, with Europe and much of Asia in ruins, communism keeping large parts of the globe outside the free world market and America the only place relatively untouched by war, living standards went up to an artificially high level for a lot of people in the US. And here's where the problems started: the unions got arrogant and greedy. By the early 1960s, there was hardly a factory in the US that wanted to run the risk of allowing a strike, and companies caved to ever fatter contracts for union employees, who came to see them as "fair" and expected bigger and better things with each new contract negotiation.

The problem is that all this was happening when America's share of the world market peaked, and it's been in decline since then. Unless there is a Third World War and we are somehow not involved directly, America will NEVER account for the share of the world's manufactured goods, agriculture or really anything else, that it did in the 1950s and 1960s. It will NEVER come back. It was created by a set of circumstances that were almost unique in history.

That's not to say that America won't remain a large and powerful country with a good economy. It's just saying that we shouldn't be measuring things by the 1950s or 1960s economically. But the problem is that unions keep doing exactly that, and each time a business owner tries to say, "Well, I can build factories in China, or Mexico, or India...or even just in South Carolina or Texas...give me a reason to build something in your union-friendly state..." they can't provide a reason.

There is no effective union answer to that business owner's question. They start talking about the benefits of having union workers (there are none - union workers work less and demand more, and they cause problems every 5 years or so when their contract comes up for renegotiation), they sing "Solidarity forever" like they're in a cult and then, like the 18,000 union workers of Hostess, they find themselves out of jobs because labor can migrate.

In fact, there are only a few ways to solve this problem satisfactorily from the standpoint of the union workers: (1) erect trade barriers to make it impossible to ship jobs overseas or (2) unionize all labor. Neither will ever happen. The first "solution" will never happen because tariffs will lead other countries to react in kind (I'm assuming we drop out of the WTO because otherwise we couldn't put up trade barriers in the first place) and trade wars destroy economies. The second "solution" is utopian beyond recognition. It was the goal of communism. Realizing they couldn't compete, communist nations decided that the only way they could ensure their survival was to make sure that ALL countries became communist. However, it only takes one country to say, "Screw this" for the system to fail, because that country will immediately make more money as a result of having a natural (free market) system that treats labor as a commodity.

Your historical argument regarding the benefits of unions is also stupid. Let's take that "Life of Brian" analogy of yours a bit farther. Asking "What have the unions ever done for us?" is like if the characters in "Life of Brian" asked what goods the Romans had done AFTER Titus had sacked the Temple and destroyed Jerusalem. Sure, they brought aqueducts, roads, and all those other good things, but then they butchered the people and drove out those who survived. Unions did a lot of good historically and no one doubts that, but they also did a great deal to destroy American industry.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 14/12/2012 at 04:18:45 AM
Reply to message
Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1355 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 697 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 638 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 680 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 677 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 613 Views
Dude, that's insane. - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 676 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 562 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 616 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 715 Views
The good and the bad of unions: - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 793 Views
Double post. - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 852 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 612 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 404 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 710 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 599 Views
- 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 822 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 720 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 741 Views
one point i need to address here: - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 566 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 773 Views
it's great? - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 650 Views
Pissed off people.... - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 566 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 692 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 554 Views
but that's my point exactly - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 609 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 326 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 589 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 582 Views
So let me get this straight. - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 653 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 598 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 639 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 606 Views
That would be an interesting study... - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 589 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 552 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 635 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 602 Views
How is that wrong? - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 568 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 586 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 582 Views
A brilliant argument... - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 655 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 581 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 515 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 592 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 563 Views
i'll take you one further.... - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 520 Views
I have suggested that before - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 572 Views
so you did. sorry about that! - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 538 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 574 Views
funny thing about that..... - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 516 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 593 Views
What do you want me to say? - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 695 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 315 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 637 Views
This must be a trying time for you. - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 590 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 280 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 733 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 556 Views

Reply to Message