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it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions moondog Send a noteboard - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM
"Unions cannot collect dues at union shops." Isn't it more that they cannot force someone to pay it (or even be a member of the union)?

How is this wrong? And here's the best part of it...and it kind of proves my point. It is not the union's shop. It is the company's shop. They are the ones who are liable for everything. It is their property, their equipment, and ultimately their business. If an individual wants to be part of the union, to have them be their advocate, then they pay the dues and get the benefits thereof.

If the individual wants to venture on in the workplace without that advocate, then good luck.

How is any of that wrong? There are OSHA laws, discrimination laws, and pay rate laws. There is a vast network of litigation possibilities for unfair workplace treatment. How is a union relevant in this day and age? What do they offer that the above mentioned laws & an individuals merit do not account for?

~Jeordam


your argument is starting to sound like that scene in "Life of Brian" (and i'm paraphrasing because i don't have it memorized)

"Ok, apart from roads, schools, public safety, the aqueduct and sanitation, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

your argument also does not account for the fact that management typically intimidates workers into staying out of the unions, even when union representation is strong. by cutting out the dues of union membership, the intimidation of workers to accept more and more work for less and less pay will be more widespread.

look at the examples of caterpillar, hostess, tyson chicken and others where management took a hard line against the union, won the concessions, screwed over the workers anyway, then gave themselves big bonuses for doing so. and these are all examples where the unions were willing to limit themselves and their power for the long-term health of the companies they worked for and got screwed anyway. by limiting the power of unions, how are workers supposed to cope when management eventually screws them over? the answer is, they can't.
"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1357 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 698 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 640 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 682 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 679 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 615 Views
Dude, that's insane. - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 678 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 564 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 618 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 717 Views
The good and the bad of unions: - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 793 Views
Double post. - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 852 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 614 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 404 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 712 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 600 Views
- 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 823 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 720 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 743 Views
one point i need to address here: - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 568 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 773 Views
it's great? - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 652 Views
Pissed off people.... - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 568 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 694 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 556 Views
but that's my point exactly - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 611 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 326 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 591 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 583 Views
So let me get this straight. - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 654 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 600 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 641 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 607 Views
That would be an interesting study... - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 590 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 553 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 637 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 604 Views
How is that wrong? - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 570 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 588 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 583 Views
A brilliant argument... - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 657 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 582 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 517 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 594 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 565 Views
i'll take you one further.... - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 522 Views
I have suggested that before - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 574 Views
so you did. sorry about that! - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 540 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 576 Views
funny thing about that..... - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 517 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 594 Views
What do you want me to say? - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 696 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 315 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 638 Views
This must be a trying time for you. - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 591 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 280 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 733 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 558 Views

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